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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption (reuters.com)
afavour 53 minutes ago [-]
Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to let it continue or you rip the feature away and anger users (who you then point to the EU as the problem)

It's not as if Apple doesn't have the money to dedicate a team to matching the EU's requirements on a deadline. They just choose not to.

eykanal 42 minutes ago [-]
Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years.

Sure, there's a messaging component to this. However, any company that isn't trying to just skirt the law will aim to do this sort of thing correctly, and it's an enormous effort.

afavour 36 minutes ago [-]
To me that reads as an even greater reason not to delay it. If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them. Waiting until post launch now means a massive amount of re-engineering.

I know it’s not quite as simple as that but I do think it shows Apple are more interested in blaming the EU than reducing the potential issues ahead of time.

JumpCrisscross 32 minutes ago [-]
> If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them

This slows down deploying the system globally. Particularly if the target is moving, it may make sense to build lightly so one can pivot, and then build in the compliance stuff after you know you have a winning configuration.

The EU has its laws. Apple has its strategy. The only thing I fault anyone on is the public bickering.

jefftk 21 minutes ago [-]
Laws and strategy are not fixed, and public bickering is part of how they get optimized.
JumpCrisscross 5 minutes ago [-]
That’s fair. Apple bickers in the EU and U.S. It doesn’t in China. I have a clear preference for one set of political systems.
Forgeties79 26 minutes ago [-]
I imagine complying with all kinds of laws and regulations slows releases in some way or another and having none of them would allow people to ship faster, so what makes these EU regulations so distinct? Do what you have to do to comply with the law and release, as always.
JumpCrisscross 23 minutes ago [-]
> complying with all kinds of laws delays release in some way or another and having none of them would allow people to ship faster, so what makes these EU regulations so distinct?

DMA was designed to be a comprehensive regulatory suite. Lawmakers knew it would be onerous; that’s why it only applies to large companies.

Also, the DMA’s interoperability requirement creates external partners. Let’s face it, Apple’s track record with Siri sucks. If they launch a system and it is crap again, they may not now want an entire ecosystem of folks who will cry foul if they dump the API and start over.

> Do what you have to do to comply with the law and release, as always

Just follow the law. If that means not releasing in a jurisdiction, do that and then don’t tweet snotty things about it. (Siri AI isn’t launching in China, either. I don’t see PMs complaining about that in public.)

Forgeties79 7 minutes ago [-]
No one complains (out loud) about US regulations either. Ultimately it’s about the weight you can throw as well as PR. Probably easier for Apple to make the EU look bad and drag their feet on it. I imagine they’re still not thrilled about the Lightening->USB-C change
JumpCrisscross 5 minutes ago [-]
> No one complains (out loud) about US regulations either

Everyone constantly does!

fnordsensei 27 minutes ago [-]
The point isn’t that it’s easy or straightforward to do. The point is that one of the world’s wealthiest companies can spare the resources needed to comply with the regulations of one of the world’s largest markets.
JumpCrisscross 15 minutes ago [-]
> one of the world’s wealthiest companies can spare the resources needed to comply with the regulations of one of the world’s largest markets

At what cost? This is Apple’s second bite at AI. Giannandrea fucked up the first time. I’m honestly with Cupertino on not over complicating it the second time around. If they found the right mix of features and architecture, great, then work to port it to high-bar jurisdictions.

krzyk 30 minutes ago [-]
Why does systems are not designed take into account that compliance work?
rvnx 25 minutes ago [-]
Because of move fast and break things mentality. Let's say if ChatGPT was launched respecting GDPR, or respecting copyrights, they would have reached nowhere.
JumpCrisscross 13 minutes ago [-]
> Let's say if ChatGPT was launched respecting GDPR, or respecting copyrights

Bad comparison. Launching with GDPR compliance isn’t particularly taxing if you’re already complying with California’s CCPA. (You need your twenty-eight EU law firms on retainer, but the big firms package that conveniently.)

Copyright theft in AI, on the other hand, is a global phenomenon.

DMA is most akin to the U.S. system of designating financial institutions SIFIs and then putting a bunch of extra requirements on them. It’s absolutely onerous. But I think, in the long run, it probably benefits European consumers and developers. In exchange for being late to the party they get a chance at Apple’s profits.

McDyver 39 minutes ago [-]
It goes to show that privacy is not a priority. And it should be.
anon7000 25 minutes ago [-]
No, this is unrelated from privacy. The issue is that the EU won’t allow the new Siri because Apple isn’t willing to open up the system enough for 3rd party AI agents to get the same functionality.
rvnx 30 minutes ago [-]
Part of it is also a certification circus.

For example, with Copilot, you get a contractual pinky promise that they cannot access your data.

Can engineers really not access ? Can the police really not access ?

It's like AirTag for example. Apple cannot access it because it's scientifically "impossible" by design, but if they sign-in to your account, well it's over.

Once Apple fills the right audit / certification / paperwork they will be able to enable that feature. It could also be a negotiation lever.

JumpCrisscross 31 minutes ago [-]
> privacy is not a priority

Isn’t this less about privacy than competition?

m3kw9 35 minutes ago [-]
EU privacy laws are not there to protect your privacy, its there because the law makers don't know how modern privacy works and wants their name on the law so it seems they did something.
adrianN 28 minutes ago [-]
I think you should elaborate a bit on that because to me it seems that EU privacy laws are actually fairly good at protecting privacy.
flumpcakes 30 minutes ago [-]
EU has some of the best consumer protection and privacy laws on the planet.
Xirdus 32 minutes ago [-]
So, what are the chances they'd completely redo multiple core systems in the 18 months they asked for?
epolanski 41 minutes ago [-]
Yet Gemini had no issues to comply with EU's DMA and release on all phones?

Let's call it how it is: Android phones allow every competitor to run their chatbot in place of Gemini. Want Perplexity instead of Gemini? You can have it. Samsung launches with Perplexity as of late.

Apple? As always, went into "ay mate, too integrated, can't give the same APIs to competitors" lame excuse.

yandie 34 minutes ago [-]
Appples architecture prevents them from seeing customers data (see Private Cloud Compute documentation). Data that Gemini see goes straight to Google. Big difference here.

Weird to say it but the only assistant with any guarantee for privacy by design is Siri at the moment.

epolanski 20 minutes ago [-]
What is the source of this claim that this is the reason?
NitpickLawyer 26 minutes ago [-]
> Data that Gemini see goes straight to Google.

That's not how the deal was announced. You don't pay Bs / year for a licence to gemini to send them your data. You pay that to run it on your own hardware, in your own garden, so the data stays put.

I know the internet is always anti big companies, but this is likely a "not worth it for now, we'll eventually do it" effort from Apple. The EU AI act is a mess, and the effort to simply know what they have to do to comply with it is likely going to take armies of people (not devs) and a lot of time, as the OOP said.

And the saddest part about it, is that Apple has the money and resources to sink into this. Think about all the small players that don't. This is yet again a miss for the commission, with the end result being an insidious form of regulatory capture. It sucks for those of us running small companies. Oh well.

ErneX 19 minutes ago [-]
epolanski 14 minutes ago [-]
100%, it's been almost 2 years that you can choose whatever you want.[1]

I run Perplexity in place of Gemini, but I can also run Claude and others.

[1] https://i.imgur.com/BgvxqQQ.png

Apple is just being the usual Apple being both an hardware vendor and giving it's own software advantages that competitors don't have and using the security bogus argument as always.

And yet, people believe that crap and jump into defending Apple as if being an Apple user is their identity, sad.

ErneX 11 minutes ago [-]
But read the article, the EU wants even tighter integration for third parties, so it’s not exactly like Google is out of the woods regarding the DMA and this.
dktp 32 minutes ago [-]
That's not fully true. Lots of things get to Europe later (Gemini memories, though we have them now, Spark as latest noteworthy)

Or never. Like the majority of Pixel 10 on device AI features (image editing, magic cue).

krzyk 27 minutes ago [-]
Some features don't land in Europe because US companies can't handle the amount of languages. For them it is English and maybe Spanish or Chinese because they don't care how heybmake money.
epolanski 21 minutes ago [-]
Nonsense, Google is among the most aggressive when it comes to localization to the point of being oblivious.

I have not been able to switch language in Sheets since 2018, and I've changed any possible setting (even account language).

All guides are in English and I'm stuck with Sheets in Italian.

zdragnar 37 minutes ago [-]
If the options are "launch in the rest of the world quickly and get to the EU later" or "launch everywhere at once years after the competition" PMs and execs are going to choose the latter every time.
rootusrootus 29 minutes ago [-]
Former, you mean?
ivan_gammel 35 minutes ago [-]
Privacy by design isn‘t enormous effort, as every European engineering manager will tell you. It‘s just another reasonable and straightforward set of requirements. Of course, if you want to have privacy-less features in jurisdictions permitting it, that‘s a different story and that‘s a choice.
bflesch 32 minutes ago [-]
Privacy by design while making a seven-figure salary because you make people buy stuff they don't really need is quite difficult ;)
mantas 27 minutes ago [-]
In this case it looks like EU is requiring to let competitors mess with Apple users privacy.
bflesch 34 minutes ago [-]
Wow, Google must be a poster child for privacy then.
joe_mamba 38 minutes ago [-]
>These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years.

And yet Apple had no major issues complying to the draconical demands of the CCP to sell and operate there. Weird.

Also, it's not like Apple can't afford the manpower for this. They're not a hole in the wall mon & pop shop.

wmf 22 minutes ago [-]
The new Siri isn't available in China yet either.
ErneX 16 minutes ago [-]
Or really anywhere, since it comes out in Fall. Unless you count developer betas as available of course.
bnj 45 minutes ago [-]
As I follow the situation, it seems that regulatory uncertainty is a major issue though- the EU’s requirements are framed in terms of outcomes sought, rather than in terms that can be quantitatively shown as met or broken. So it’s not a matter of dedicating a team to meet a list of requirements, but instead navigating the worst case scenario of enforcement if post-launch the EU determines that the proscribed outcomes aren’t being met.
necovek 29 minutes ago [-]
In this case it looks much simpler: Apple strictly does not want to open up the iOS platform to other competing agents, as they lose the monopolistic moat if they do. While making a true developer platform with good documentation is often hard and expensive, with the market access they'd get, companies would gladly jump on it even if it was badly documented as long as they have guarantees of continued legal access.

At the same time, this potentially opens up the entire worldwide market (imagine EU iPhones being imported into US to use with OpenAI or Claude Cowork), and they probably made the estimation that keeping EU out is still better value (70% of the market all to themselves) than fair competition in the 100% of the market (I guess they estimate they might get less than 70% in that case).

Or they are hoping that EU customers will want Siri AI enough to campaign for a change, but I'd find that highly unlikely.

krzyk 10 minutes ago [-]
Yeah, Siri was such a poor solution compared to Google (and Google's is also poor in EU) that no one would make a campaign.

If Siri wants to be seen as anything it should first support every EU language and they can work from there.

rock_artist 20 minutes ago [-]
> imagine EU iPhones being imported into US to use with OpenAI or Claude Cowork

That's not the case. it's merely software (exactly like my iPhone 16 lacking the promised AI features claimed at WWDC24).

Anyway as I'm now within the EU with phone I bought before moving to the EU, regional features (or restrictions) depends on the logged in account and device regional settings. Except physical considerations (eSIM design, actual radio transceivers). The hardware is the same thank god.

JumpCrisscross 26 minutes ago [-]
> keeping EU out is still better value (70% of the market all to themselves)

They may also not want to commit to a platform play until they find what works. Siri has been an albatross for Cupertino. If they launch a full platform, they may have to maintain it. If this Siri iteration is another flop and they’re in control, they can pivot more easily.

swiftcoder 33 minutes ago [-]
> but instead navigating the worst case scenario of enforcement if post-launch the EU determines that the proscribed outcomes aren’t being met

This is true of most things that involve legal. Laws are not code, in basically any jurisdiction they are subject to interpretation, and just because you've dotted your Is and crossed your Ts, doesn't mean an enterprising enforcement agency won't still come after you

gmueckl 35 minutes ago [-]
A lot of regulation is defined in terms of outcomes. That in itself isn't unusual. Checklists of technical requirements are always a derivative and a suggestion about a safe path to meet the regulated outcome. This is how "blessed" standards for e.g. medical devices work. This shields the laws themselves from overly technical discussions.

The only difference that I can see here is that the standards layer hasn't solidified yet.

thrance 34 minutes ago [-]
EU laws are written like this to give companies maximum freedom in how they implement their solutions, not to lay traps for them to fall into.
gmueckl 44 minutes ago [-]
Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily.

But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product?

This is quite the contradiction.

Aurornis 38 minutes ago [-]
> Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product?

Complying with complex privacy laws is surprisingly orthogonal to making a product with good privacy.

In another regulatory area (not privacy, but something more historically regulated) we ran into strange situations where complying with the letter of the law would require us to walk back things that we had done in a better way. The laws are not simple and they're not written by engineers or even people who understand what future product needs look like.

bflesch 31 minutes ago [-]
Privacy laws are not complex, they only become complex if your goal is to actually skirt them.

Tax laws are also quite easy, tax lawyers are only needed if you want to NOT pay what the country you're operating in is owed.

kube-system 27 minutes ago [-]
Respectfully, it sounds like you just haven't dealt with any significant tax or regulatory tasks.

There's entire industries of experts who work on these tasks, and they don't just work for people trying to skirt the rules. I've hired people for both tasks and the reason was specifically to comply.

JumpCrisscross 28 minutes ago [-]
> Privacy laws are not complex

Privacy isn’t complex, compliance is.

> Tax laws are also quite easy

Yet audits are still a pain.

> tax lawyers are only needed if you want to NOT pay

This is nonsense. Tax lawyers are sometimes used to skirt the law. They’re much more often there to help prove you followed it.

s1artibartfast 20 minutes ago [-]
would you say civil engineers are only required of you want to skirt building codes?

Someone has to understand the codes and how they might be applied to a specific project, and direct a project such that the outcome will comply.

Codes dont provide a blueprint for a house or a bridge. They stipulate features and properties that it must have. Design resides with the firm.

kube-system 35 minutes ago [-]
The exemption Apple wanted was not from a privacy law, but from the DMA. They never claimed to have an issue meeting their privacy laws when using their own product, it was other people's products that they said they couldn't guarantee the privacy of.

Here's their argument in their own words: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/06/due-to-dma-siri-ai-de...

spwa4 29 minutes ago [-]
You mean they wanted there to be no confusion whatsoever that they wouldn't allow competition in their ecosystem.
kube-system 26 minutes ago [-]
The exemption requested was temporary.
necovek 8 minutes ago [-]
EU response said it was "for a minimum of 18 months" — does not sound temporary to me.
spacebanana7 33 minutes ago [-]
There’s a difference from being able to protect privacy, and doing so in a way that complies with EU law
aeontech 32 minutes ago [-]
Lemma 1: you want to protect your users privacy, and are also beholden to regulation enforcing that commitment (GDPR).

Lemma 2: you are obliged by other regulation to offer equal access to user data to third parties, so others can build equivalent functionality (DMA).

Lemma 3: malicious third parties will absolutely try to abuse the access and trick the user into sharing their data by all means possible. You will be held responsible in court of public opinion at minimum and legally at maximum if/when a malicious third party abuses said access.

This is a hard, possibly technically unsolvable problem no matter how much money you might have, because the root issue is not technical, it's the fact that you legally have to give third parties access and no way to control what they do with it - and as others have mentioned in the threads, it's exacerbated by the fact that the regulation doesn't say "this is okay and this is not", it is vague and judges things "by outcome", so you may spend all the time in the world implementing a solution you think will work, and then get hit by fines/lawsuits because the implementation is judged as not sufficient after the fact.

necovek 1 minutes ago [-]
I am not sure this is as much of a tension as you make it sound: where is the obligation that a marketplace administrator will be blamed for any and all breaches of data privacy trust from a participating (likely malicious) third party?

According to GDPR, the app developer is the "data controller" and thus ultimately responsible. Only in the case where Apple knowingly participated in unlawful behavior is it likely to be held accountable, and even then, in addition to the app developer. Obviously, if we are not talking about leaks from the actual App Store system (eg. Apple account logins and user data).

So while it sounds plausible, the legal framework is exactly not what you describe here — Apple can claim to want better protection for customers by not allowing third party apps, but EU rejects that (it can similarly extend to app store itself) and pushes for competitive landscape with DMA instead.

yungookim 11 minutes ago [-]
This is the smartest summary in the post
wmf 17 minutes ago [-]
Apple is providing a level of privacy far beyond what the laws require. It would be easy if they only wanted to comply with GDPR and DMA.
lotsofpulp 35 minutes ago [-]
Protecting user privacy and reducing surface area for litigation against the business can happen simultaneously. Not that it is, but just saying, politics and difficult to define thresholds muddy the waters.
epistasis 47 minutes ago [-]
I think there's a reasonable question of whether the Siri stuff is even a feature that customers want. Additionally, money can not solve all problems, 9 people can't make a baby in a month, and if these sorts of regulations are serious at all like they are for medical regulation then you really do need to do the work of assessing risks, etc., and there's a chain of waterfall development to all that.
thinkloop 31 minutes ago [-]
No amount of people can make any amount babies, it's an unrelated chemical process, never cared for that analogy.
giancarlostoro 46 minutes ago [-]
> It's not as if Apple doesn't have the money to dedicate a team to matching the EU's requirements on a deadline. They just choose not to.

The one legacy in Apple that Steve Jobs left behind is their distaste for taking risks that lose them money (ChatGPT was going to be their AI core... but then they had Altman ousted, so they backed away and partnered with Google instead), and spending money. I think they're still the only company with a kitchen in the valley that still makes employees pay for their own lunch, and the reason is the most BS reason that Steve Jobs pulled out of his rear end. It's so the employees appreciate the lunch, really?

y1n0 37 minutes ago [-]
Well, whatever the real reason is, people do appreciate things they have to work for more than things given for free.

I’m not saying I believe that’s the real reason here. But it is broadly true. Ask any company that offers a free tier where most of the complaints and problematic customers come from.

giancarlostoro 27 minutes ago [-]
> Well, whatever the real reason is, people do appreciate things they have to work for more than things given for free.

People can also appreciate things they get for free though. I'd appreciate a free lunch, most places I've worked at, actually nowhere I've ever worked, EVER has given me a free lunch. Now if its a difference of paying for a quality lunch at a reasonable price, and not paying for lunch but its mediocre, then yeah, seems like a no-brainer.

I wouldn't be surprised if Steve Jobs implemented was a way to get them back into the green.

Also, TIL:

> Jobs, who notoriously took a salary of only $1 a year, used to "scam" Apple out of free lunches by scanning his badge alongside colleagues and insisting on paying for everyone, knowing the charges would just default back to Apple.

rdtsc 43 minutes ago [-]
This has the "do you even know who you're talking to?" air from Apple. Everyone should comply but not us, we're too cool and too damn important.
spullara 32 minutes ago [-]
Personally, I wouldn't want Apple to comply with this EU law and I hope that more companies refuse to release features with onerous requirements. Opening up all access to control the phone to some random app the consumer installed seems super dangerous.
necovek 22 minutes ago [-]
Letting a US company (under jurisdiction of, say, US Cloud Act, but also unknown administration orders that might come) strictly control the phone for a privacy focused EU citizen (or more broadly, non-US citizen) seems super dangerous.

The requirements are not onerous, it is the basic preemption of monopolist behavior.

Qualifying "random apps" is something that is a true challenge, but that holds regardless of the API being offered — the problem is that Apple saves some programming API only for themselves, instead of introducing acceptable & objective market terms to be met (if deemed unsafe, they could require companies to demonstrate compliance with things like CRA to get access to these APIs).

spullara 19 minutes ago [-]
I am perfectly ok with EU having different rules of their own but they also can't be upset when features aren't offered there. That is the trade-off they have chosen and I am ok with it.
necovek 11 minutes ago [-]
People in EU are upset that Apple is saying that EU would not let them build it, not that it's not offered there.
flumpcakes 28 minutes ago [-]
Don’t install the app then. Consumer protection at some level means the consumer needs to be informed. I’d rather have a choice than just chow down on whatever the gatekeepers call food.
LurkandComment 31 minutes ago [-]
Do the f*n work to make it compliant! Its not like they're some bootstrapped company running out of a van. I can't say I'm always in favor or how compliance works but its a valid requirement.
necovek 11 minutes ago [-]
It sounds like the work on the privacy layer was significant and to give "equal" access to other competing AI systems, they would need to include that "for free" as part of the platform. Or they could try to keep that as the moat for Siri AI, and only offer privacy "entry points" that other agents can tie into, but vendors would have to implement privacy preserving functions themselves.

This is the bit that's likely hard, because generally keeping safety and privacy guarantees as data flows through the system is extremely hard, and Apple would not be able to guarantee it for other products without large review investment.

But ultimately, they probably just do not want to do it until Siri AI gets a decent marketshare first, so competing agents would have to both build new solutions for the platform once open, but also deal with an incumbent dominant player already on people's phones.

torginus 19 minutes ago [-]
Apple has a third of the EU market to itself. It would be just insane for the EU to give an exemption that means the law doesn't apply a third of the time.
dominotw 39 minutes ago [-]
so you think its just a matter of ppl working through paperwork?

seems a bit simplistic.

a2128 50 minutes ago [-]
In a circle of irony, reuters.com is denying my request to read the article about Apple deciding to deny rolling out Siri in EU due to being denied their request for an exemption to law

    Access Denied
    
    Our apologies, the content you requested cannot be accessed.
em-bee 39 minutes ago [-]
it's denial all the way down, but i don't see the circle, hence i am denying to upvote ;-)
jandrewrogers 33 minutes ago [-]
I understand Apple's position on this one. This is essentially a backdoor into all of your data. It is also a very useful feature. The EU regulators are disallowing guardrails without which this backdoor will be used to strip-mine people's personal data. The privacy implications are not legible to most people.

If I was more cynical I would suggest that this is being used as an end-run around encryption, since the encryption doesn't have backdoors for the government but this gives you access to all the same data.

When this backdoor is inevitably exploited in some very public fashion, it won't be the EU regulators that required the backdoor to exist who will be blamed.

simjnd 22 minutes ago [-]
It would only be a backdoor if it's implemented as a backdoor.

The way Apple Health exchanges data with 3rd-party trackers (Fitbit, Garmin, etc.) is very well built and a good model of how other components in iOS could allow data exchange with very granular permissions.

Apple touts the "Private Cloud Compute". If they found a way to share your personal context to process on their cloud in a private and anonymized way, there is no reason the same process couldn't be used to handoff data to a 3rd party AI provider.

jandrewrogers 14 minutes ago [-]
The technical problem is nothing like exchanging data with fitness trackers.

One of the issues here is that there are many people with strong opinions that don't understand the thing they have strong opinions about. Which is the normal state of human affairs.

flumpcakes 25 minutes ago [-]
iPhones have pretty good privacy controls. I don’t see how they can’t extend those to cover AI apps. I imagine the settings menu will get bonkers though. User education about apps slurping up all your data is needed regardless. People just trust apple with their talk of private cloud computing.
jplrssn 49 minutes ago [-]
> EU regulators on Tuesday slammed Apple

This reads more like a tabloid headline than the first sentence of a Reuters article.

greggoB 28 minutes ago [-]
Depends on the news you read I guess, to me the word "slammed" is pretty commonplace in politics news-reporting and has been for a while (read: well before the modern take-down content that's so common to social media platforms).
concinds 14 minutes ago [-]
Does not address Apple’s specific allegation, that the EU demanded that competing AIs have direct systemwide access to all apps and data, while Apple wanted to add an intermediation layer which Siri or competitors would plug into, and which would force the same level of user visibility (a popup at the top) over any AI’s behavior.

I don’t know why the EU allowed Apple to intermediate other browser engines with BrowserEngineKit, which is unacceptable, while blocking it here where it is reasonable.

grim_io 46 minutes ago [-]
I'd rather have my iPhone turn into a dumbphone than EU bow to the Megacorps.
nsikorr 44 minutes ago [-]
Good for the total of eight users that will then use an alternative agent once it landed. Similar to the twelve people that use alternative app stores.
callc 21 minutes ago [-]
Why make fun of freedom?

Have some dignity. We all deserve the right to fully own our general compute devices.

remus 41 minutes ago [-]
The whole point is to try and avoid ending up in situations like this, where apple were able to extort 30% of app store revenue because they dictate how people are allowed to use their devices.
simjnd 19 minutes ago [-]
AltStore is hugely popular, and that is DESPITE Apple going out of their way to scare people into using the App Store.
guax 41 minutes ago [-]
> “We have hundreds of thousands of users,” AltStore co-founder Testut told TechCrunch in an interview. “Wonderful and good numbers.”

Zero idea if its true tho.

doctorpangloss 35 minutes ago [-]
it's still being litigated wrt to alternative app stores: https://9to5mac.com/2026/06/04/epic-games-asks-u-s-supreme-c...

the core technology fee is a big obstacle to alternative app stores.

openclaw is massively popular. there is a lot of diversity in "persona" agents, which are different than coding agents or the agent apple demoed. they're not all the same.

i don't know, i don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

elxr 30 minutes ago [-]
"Yes, lock down my OS harder my master. I don't deserve to freely run my own software on my phone master."
flopbob 27 minutes ago [-]
Why is there so much talk about privacy here? The DMA is an antitrust framework,the privacy argument is just the Apple spin of their refusal to comply
graphime 53 minutes ago [-]
Good.

EU has the right to privacy.

Apple also has the right to not conduct business in EU.

If EU doesn’t like it, they can build their own sovereign software.

woah 49 minutes ago [-]
I believe that the issue was that the EU wanted Apple to open up their new AI agent interface (the ability to control every app on your phone so Siri can call you an Uber or whatever), and Apple thought that it was too risky of a capability to give to any random AI app right out of the gate.
esperent 47 minutes ago [-]
> Apple thought that it was too risky of a capability to give to any random AI app right out of the gate

Oh come on. Apple doesn't want to give up control. That's what this is about. The privacy thing is just to make them look good

y1n0 35 minutes ago [-]
Nothing you wrote is in disagreement with the parent.
m3kw9 33 minutes ago [-]
It's both but the dangers are far more issue for their brand than control
sampton 27 minutes ago [-]
It's not about privacy. It's more like if Siri is allowed to read your emails, then Gemini and ChatGPT should too. If anything it's opposite of privacy protection.
FinnKuhn 51 minutes ago [-]
This doesn't have anything to do with privacy.

The DMA mandates that Apple allows for competition, which (if you believe in capitalism) is good for the market overall. It's essential to stop big tech from abusing their market dominance. However Apple would prefer to not allow competition for their digital products on any of their hardware.

bnj 41 minutes ago [-]
But that does have to do with privacy.

Apple wants to implement features that access data locally. It doesn’t want to allow competition for offering those features, but if it did, competitors may use that access to local data to exfiltrate.

So it is about both competition and, as a result of creating competition, privacy.

FinnKuhn 33 minutes ago [-]
Apple is using Cloud compute as well to enable Siri AI.

If you want to you could still use Apple or another provider you decide to trust - or even one that does everything locally. The competition would still have to follow GDPR after all.

flopbob 31 minutes ago [-]
This is mostly wrong. The DMA has a process to determine if a service provider acts a gatekeeper to the market, and let's be honest if Apple is not one, then I don't know who else besides Google.. So there is no privacy argument in there except Apple didn't want to design a interface that complies and is safe.
crimsontech 35 minutes ago [-]
Siri AI has the capability to read your screen and access a lot of personal stuff. I don't blame Apple for not wanting to open this up to allow any model to access it. It seems Apple proposed a number of solutions which were denied.

While I can appreciate the reason for the DMA, people don't have to buy Apple devices, they can buy any type of phone they want and just use the ecosystems provided by these phones.

matchbok3 44 minutes ago [-]
We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones. Nothing about this is about choice or the free market. They want special treatment.

Apple is free to do what they want. The EU can go and try and build their own iPhone (good luck with that).

FinnKuhn 36 minutes ago [-]
> We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones.

Do you really? The only two types of operating systems for phones that you could reasonably use are iOS and Android. So it's either Apple or Google.

Imagine a world, in which you could only consume Apple or Google services on those phones. No more Netflix or Disney+ on iPhones - only Apple TV Plus because the streaming video API is not available to third party apps. I think there are plenty of other examples to demonstrate the point.

A free market doesn't work if you have a duopoly. A free market requires the freedom to choose between different services, which Apple is trying to limit by only allowing Siri AI to access specific OS interfaces.

Not sure why some people on hackernews support more locked down operating system.

matchbok3 30 minutes ago [-]
There are hundreds of phone models. A smartphone is a just one type.

Apple came out of nowhere and invented the smartphone because the existing system was controlled by the telcos and horrible phone technology. The same thing can easily happen again.

It makes no sense to limit Netflix on phones and people would probably stop buying iPhones.

If the EU wants an "open" phone ecosystem, they should foster real innovation in their space and build it themselves.

slopinthebag 30 minutes ago [-]
There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux.

Furthermore, if we lived in a world where the two main OS's were locked down to an insane degree, we would also have plenty of alternative operating systems. The reason we don't today is because we don't really have a need for it, in the same way linux has a monopoly on servers and nobody really cares.

FinnKuhn 26 minutes ago [-]
> There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux.

Those make up 0% of the market [1], which classifies Apple and Google as gatekeepers.

[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/

slopinthebag 10 minutes ago [-]
No, they would be gatekeepers if it wasn't possible to get a phone which didn't run their operating systems. You can, it's just that they suck and nobody wants it. You have cause and effect backwards.

If you have a market with a handful of companies producing good products, and a handful of companies producing shit products nobody wants or buys, you cannot claim that the companies producing the good products are "gatekeeping", and that's the reason why nobody buys the shit products.

f6v 34 minutes ago [-]
The EU is going to be China minus the technology.
frizlab 39 minutes ago [-]
EU does not want privacy. They actually want to get rid of privacy every so often (adding backdoors in encrypted conversations). So far it has not worked out, but I’m afraid they will succeed at one point.

To follow along that line of thoughts, the requirements they are actually asking for proper DMA compliance would probably go right in that direction tbh.

I, for one, am happy Apple is taking a stance, and, as an European would really much like my government to stop asking ridiculous things that do not profit the consumer.

spiderfarmer 48 minutes ago [-]
If they can comply with China’s unreasonable demands, they can comply with the completely reasonable EU demands.

They already claim to care about your freedom and privacy. Now they can prove it.

frizlab 38 minutes ago [-]
They are not complying with China’s demand either AFAIK.
kyralis 34 minutes ago [-]
It's not launching in China either.
naturalmovement 24 minutes ago [-]
What is the countdown to Germans outraged when someone from outside the EU is walking down the street and catches a fleeting audio clip of them which is processed by Apple's AI?

Does this mean the service will not be available to EU accounts, or will they geoblock access from within the EU altogether?

dgellow 8 minutes ago [-]
For context, under German law recording spoken words without consent is illegal. There is some nuances when speaking in public loud enough for strangers around to hear though

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...

simjnd 21 minutes ago [-]
It's a geoblock. EU accounts can use the features when outside of the EU.
ErneX 27 minutes ago [-]
It would be nice if Europe had companies innovating at this level but it’s not happening. If you make a list of tentative companies that would integrate their stuff to the OS like Siri it’s very likely all those are major US companies, so I don’t even know at this point what the EU is trying to defend here.

All I know is we are buying the same devices designed by the US but keep increasing the list of features we can’t enjoy.

JumpCrisscross 9 minutes ago [-]
> If you make a list of tentative companies that would integrate their stuff to the OS like Siri it’s very likely all those are major US companies

Mistral. I’d bet my bottom dollar that the French are the reason the EU is holding firm on its position.

a_paddy 46 minutes ago [-]
What could Apple/Siri be asking for an exemption from that Google/Gemini has already complied with? Accessing iCloud photos to edit them? Parsing email etc?
frizlab 41 minutes ago [-]
google/gemini has not complied properly to DMA in android AFAIK
a_paddy 37 minutes ago [-]
Probably not, but it's still available. The DMA most likely would require the ability for users to be able to benefit from to the AI regardless of which email/photo/messaging provider they prefer to use.
Jgoauh 36 minutes ago [-]
Interesting how the "groundbreaking Private Cloud Compute" cannot rollout due to privacy laws
nozzlegear 34 minutes ago [-]
Have you considered that the EU's privacy laws may simply be onerous and burdensome, and the fact that a web of red tape has caught another fly may not actually reflect on the privacy claims of "groundbreaking Private Cloud Compute"?
simjnd 13 minutes ago [-]
I think OP didn't question the privacy of their Private Cloud Compute, just Apple's bad faith: they claim they can't handoff data in a privacy-preserving way to 3rd-parties when they tout that they absolutely CAN handoff data in a privacy-preserving way to their servers.

Apple frames this as a privacy issue when it's only a brand/control issue.

FinnKuhn 32 minutes ago [-]
The DMA is not a privacy law.
m3kw9 34 minutes ago [-]
put quotes on privacy laws.
throwaway27448 50 minutes ago [-]
Seems like a win for everyone.
cced 52 minutes ago [-]
Does this affect users that have a primary address in the EU or anyone with a phone that is _in_ the EU?
giobox 19 minutes ago [-]
The APIs in iOS that turn feature flags on/off as you travel now have gotten insanely complex. Some are on time triggers, some change instantly, some depend on where your iCloud account was setup, AFAIK there isn't a black and white answer as to what happens when you move a non-EU iPhone through Europe anymore, "it depends". It's similarly vague in the other direction.

Apple themselves have claimed recent EU compliance has led to over 600 new or changed APIs in the OS.

I've spent a fair amount of time with my iPhone in both the EU and the USA, have local cell service registered in both regions. its nothing as simple as a geo-location check anymore. It's a problem that has grown more complex over the decades too, as more and more countries implement their own slightly differing legislation.

joshuat 49 minutes ago [-]
From past experience, it is when you are physically in the EU, but this implementation could obviously differ from how they've gated features in the past.
gorbypark 31 minutes ago [-]
I have the complete opposite experience. Originally had a Canadian bought iPhone in Spain, had all the features a Canadian has and a European doesn’t (or vice versa). Upgraded to a Spanish bought iPhone and I am still a “Canadian”. I’ve been here for nearly 5 years but my Apple account is still fully Canadian (Canadian address, Canadian credit card on file). I think it’s Apple account location, maybe with some sort of system to allow people to switch countries but not allowing that to bypass restrictions? Or: that’s why a EU citizen can’t just switch their account location to unlock features?
simjnd 9 minutes ago [-]
I have a European account, when I lived in Japan I could use all the features (iPhone Mirroring, etc.) that are blocked in the EU. When back in the EU I can still use them for about 2 weeks before they get blocked again.
jwr 29 minutes ago [-]
What does it even mean to "roll out in EU"?

These concepts are so outdated it's not even funny. Let's say I have several citizenships, live mostly in the EU, but currently stay in Japan, do I get the features or not?

Like app store regional gating and DVD regions, these restrictions are dinosaurs of the past.

10 minutes ago [-]
kube-system 19 minutes ago [-]
It's referring to legal jurisdiction, not anyone's personal relationship with nationality or residence.
eigencoder 4 minutes ago [-]
I mean, borders still exist, and laws apply within borders. I don't believe that national (or supra-national in the EU's case) sovereignty is yet a dinosaur of the past.
macintux 52 minutes ago [-]
Of all the crimes Big Tech is committing against humanity, Apple's attempt to safeguard user privacy is the one the EU cannot abide?
48 minutes ago [-]
inglor_cz 23 minutes ago [-]
There is a widespread expectation here in the EU that every vendor in the world wants to access the common market and thus will accept any regulations and limitations that come with it.

Given that our share of global GDP has dropped from 25 to 17 per cent in twenty years, with a steady downward trend, I am not convinced that this principle will hold for much longer, and this case of Siri may be one of the canaries in the coalmine.

If/when we drop to single digits, many vendors won't likely care anymore.

simjnd 15 minutes ago [-]
> Europe accounted for nearly 27% of Apple's total sales in its last fiscal year

I don't know about every vendor, but Apple probably doesn't want to lose 27% of their sales.

JumpCrisscross 7 minutes ago [-]
> Apple probably doesn't want to lose 27% of their sales

They’re not going to over a single unproven feature.

dzogchen 23 minutes ago [-]
There is a way to implement this functionality in an interoperable way that complies with the DMA. Apple just chose not to. Not because it's impossible to implement it in a privacy-respecting way, it just wants to lock people into their ecosystem, the exact thing DMA is protecting users against.

Apple realized its standard malicious compliance playbook won't fly this time, so now they're trying to sway public opinion by not rolling out this feature in the EU. It won't work. They're just going to lose market share and will have to backtrack when they do. Tech regulation doing its job.

doe88 30 minutes ago [-]
This is imperialism mentality, there are much divide in US politics and society but they seem to agree on trying to dominate and berate the UE in particular. I see it displayed even among progressive commentators it doesn't surprise me it is also reflected among progressive companies. But as soon as it comes to Trump or to China then it is not the same rethoric, stance, rashness at all. This selected stances and courages don't impress me at all. I also don't have much sympathy for Europe here, i guess Europe got what it deserves when you accept and do nothing to escape the fate to be a vassal you are rightfully treated like a vassal, nothing more.
m3kw9 32 minutes ago [-]
Apple is right, EU wants to live in the stone age because of these laws, let them.
simjnd 26 minutes ago [-]
Right, wanting operability, alternative default apps, equal access to APIs is "wanting to live in the stone age". POSIX is the stone age model, and Microsoft is the future.
slopinthebag 33 minutes ago [-]
That's fine, good actually. I wish these companies would go further tbh.

Like when the UK banned encryption I wish Apple would have just disabled iMessage entirely there. Show a message saying that due to UK law, they cannot operate an encrypted messaging service there any longer. The backlash would get that law changed pretty quick.

Instead they disabled encryption for the UK, making all of us less secure.

simjnd 2 minutes ago [-]
There is a saying "American trust companies more than their government, Europeans trust their governments more than companies" when nobody should trust either.

Sometimes a company's incentives are going to be aligned with their users, but a lot of the times they won't and consumer protection regulation is useful.

Sometimes a government will have the good of their citizens in mind, and a lot of the times they will seek money and power just like companies do. Lobbies, fines, overreaching regulation.

The UK (and EU's attempted Chat Control) is some fascist bullshit. But allowing you to own the device you paid for and use it as you please (including letting you install whatever software you choose to) isn't.

nromiun 41 minutes ago [-]
Apple stock is down more than 4% right now. That is a big dump for such a blue chip stock. IDK if it is due to this EU ban or Apple choice of going with Gemini (instead of making their own models).
plorkyeran 22 minutes ago [-]
Apple stock rises leading up to WWDC and then drops following the keynote every single year. People keep betting that this is the year that they're going to announce the next iPhone and the stock is going to 10x.
dgellow 38 minutes ago [-]
The whole market is down
nromiun 37 minutes ago [-]
But AAPL has a big weight on the market/indices.
ErneX 26 minutes ago [-]
They always go down after a keynote.
mrcwinn 50 minutes ago [-]
The EU is only interested in interoperability and centralization of data so they can put their citizens under surveillance. I hope Apple continues to exit this market on the edges.
throwaway27448 49 minutes ago [-]
I don't think the GDPR came from an effort to surveil, but the world has changed in the last ten years and I do agree with this assessment today.
a_paddy 44 minutes ago [-]
One of the main rights enabled by the GDPR is to request to have data deleted, how would that facilitate surveillance?
rusk 44 minutes ago [-]
Ah yes the well known EU equivalent of the CIA, NSA

The one that’s so secret it’s not in any of the treaties that the sovereign nations that comprise the EU signed up for and implemented in line with their own democratic processes

That agency

Meanwhile they struggle to put together a border patrol, but advanced pan European surveillance apparatus that isn’t run by the US. Yeah bro

nicce 49 minutes ago [-]
I wonder how ChatGPT or Claude are actually GDPR compliant, but Apple has problems with Siri.
ipaddr 44 minutes ago [-]
What's to wonder. Those third party apps are not part of the core OS and others apps can't access them.
FinnKuhn 47 minutes ago [-]
Because this is not related to the GDPR at all, but the Digital Markets Act (DMA). It's purpose is to enable competition and not allow big tech to abuse their market dominance (e.g. in this case Apple not wanting to grant any competition the same access to MacOS so that they don't have to face competition for Siri AI).
nicce 44 minutes ago [-]
Oh. Could not access the Reuters post.
46 minutes ago [-]
kyralis 47 minutes ago [-]
This isn't GDPR, it's DMA. They're not subject to it.
rvz 41 minutes ago [-]
Even when Siri AI is using a locally installed LLM (with optional cloud models with E2EE), the EU still decides that it is not even enough.

This is why the EU is destined to lose and run itself to zero.

crimsontech 22 minutes ago [-]
This is about the Digital Markets Act, its not the EU saying it isn't secure enough, they are saying users should be able to choose to use the same functionality but with different AI providers.

Compliance with DMA would have Apple hand over system-wide access to AI features to third parties, which could compromise user privacy and security.

perlgeek 45 minutes ago [-]
Apple tries to market its product as privacy-focused, yet the privacy of their new AI features is so bad they don't meet EU standards? Is that the message here?
remus 43 minutes ago [-]
I am not very sympathetic to apple here, but I think the legislation in question is more to do with competition than data privacy.
matthewfcarlson 38 minutes ago [-]
It's the inverse problem. EU wants anyone to be able to install a different AI agent onto their phone with the same access as Siri. Apple says "no- we need time to figure out how that would work, we want other agents to meet the same privacy standards of PCC/on-device that Siri uses". Which EU said no.

I don't think there's a clear good guy/bad guy here.

CodesInChaos 33 minutes ago [-]
This conflict applies to many tools that require high privileges:

* If you allow the user to grant those privileges to third-party applications, they can grant it to applications that abuse it, resulting in security and privacy risks. You might even be blamed for allowing them access (e.g. the famous Cambridge Analytica scandal).

* If you don't allow the user to do that, third-party tools won't be able to serve those needs, which can be considered anti-competitive preferential treatment of your own tools.

a_paddy 40 minutes ago [-]
The interoperability of their AI doesn't meet EU standards.
f6v 33 minutes ago [-]
You've got to be delusional if you think the EU has a good grasp of AI.
microtonal 50 minutes ago [-]
So, first they have to be regulated because Apple and Android form a duopoly. Then they want to get an exception that the other duopoly player does not get.

Of course, as usual they use their PR machine to blame the EU, whereas they really just want to abuse their platform's position to shut out competitors.

I have been a decades long Apple user, but their anti-competitive behavior, pushing ads into the OS and apps, and their treatment of developers (who made the iPhone big) is just gross.

4fterd4rk 15 minutes ago [-]
EU wants people to be able to plug any model into the new Siri system that will have unlimited access to all of your messages, photos, what's on your screen, browsing history, etc.

Apple says hey so we're going to need some time to figure out if we can do that in a way that won't completely fuck over our users.

Very different than the narrative you're pushing

bebeidjdkrjrjr 46 minutes ago [-]
If antimonopoly system would work, you would be able to install any OS on those devices. Iphone sucks if you install freebsd there, very useless hardware.
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