Empowering the 'User' (hardware owner) should have always been the focus.
From that mindset what makes sense are hardware vendors including a cache of trusted third party root certificates from known other vendors. Today this would include Microsoft, the same said hardware vendor, probably various respected Linux organizations/groups (Offhand, Linux Foundation, ArchLinux, Debian, IBM/RedHat, Oracle, SUSE, etc), similar for BSD...
Crucially the end user should then be ASKED which to enable. None should be enrolled out of the box. They might also be enabled only for specific things. E.G. HW vendor could be enabled only for new system firmware signatures (load using the existing software) rather than generic UEFI boot targets. The user should also be able to enroll their own CA certs as well; multiple of them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit, and system local signatures.
It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform access API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-storage space. This would be a great place to stash things like UEFI drivers for accessing additional types of hardware drivers, OS boot bits + small related files, etc. I would have said 1GB of storage would be more than sufficient for this - however Microsoft has proven that assumption incorrect. Still it'd be nice to have a standard place and a feature that says the system ships with this much reliable secondary storage included (or maybe 1-2 micro-SD card slots, etc).
NekkoDroid 27 minutes ago [-]
> From that mindset what makes sense are hardware vendors including a cache of trusted third party root certificates from known other vendors. Today this would include Microslop, the same said hardware vendor, probably various respected Linux organizations/groups (Offhand, Linux Foundation, ArchLinux, Debian, IBM/RedHat, Oracle, SUSE, etc), similar for BSD...
IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
This way it is entirely agnostic of any cherrypicked list of "trust me" vendors. You'd still have most of the benefits of easy secure boot enrolling for those that don't know what it even is/how to do it while also allowing easy choosing of other OSes (at least on initial first boot).
The main problem currently is option-ROM which has a tendency to cause the system to not even POST if secure boot is enabled without MS keys. Recently bricked a MoBo this way and even though it has 2 BIOS I can't actively choose which one to boot, it just has some "trust me, I know when" logic that chooses... well guess how well that is working for me...). The Asrock board I replaced it with though has an option for what it should do with such option-ROM when secure boot is active (don't run, always run, run if signed, ...)
> The user should also be able to enroll their own CA certs as well; multiple of them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit, and system local signatures.
Isn't this already the status quo??
> It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform access API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-storage space. [...]
I think UEFI is already complex enough and most of this can in a way already somewhat be handled by the EFI System Partition, e.g. systemd-boot can tell the UEFI to load (file system) drivers off of it (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd-boot#Supported_file...), I don't know if UEFI technically supports other types of drivers to be loaded.
bitwize 3 minutes ago [-]
> IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
Nobody wants to "install" an operating system. Computers should come with an OS preinstalled and ready to run. Everything else is a dead letter in terms of the marketplace.
bitwize 4 minutes ago [-]
This is what you get when a programmer designs a system.
The end user wants to be able to just pick up a computer from Best Buy and have it work, out of the box.
Microsoft can't even conceptualize why you would want to run anything but the Windows that came with the machine. If the expected Windows kernel and files aren't there, or have been altered, that is evidence of malicious tampering—malware that must be stopped. (I'm deliberately steelmanning their perspective here.)
Streaming services want a secure content path. Game vendors want protection against cheating. In order to comply with local/regional/national laws, web sites need you to verify your age, and they need to know your computer is not lying (remote attestation). Nobody wants to be hacked.
The incentives for everyone else besides techies align against techies getting to run arbitrary code on their devices. The Secure Boot system is working precisely as designed.
mistrial9 50 minutes ago [-]
> Crucially the end user should then be ASKED which to enable
except, on the other side of the "strange fellows" are people who rose to executive authority by ruthless focus on control of every aspect of their business, and profit including excluding others who did actual work. There is zero point zero chance of any argument that relies on "should" to work IMHO
this is a political situation by definition -- vastly different yet connected members of society and economics, seeking the rule of law to enable stable markets. hint- some of the same decision makers are the ones that pay to put spy code in your large new TV or appliances.
ronsor 2 hours ago [-]
(2019)
The biggest weakness of secure boot was always third-party vendors shipping "insecure" bootloaders. It's a lot of work to verify signatures for every bit of data that gets loaded, especially on the PC platform.
bri3d 1 hours ago [-]
> Most motherboards include only Microsoft keys as trusted
Is this really true, in 2019 when this was written or today? I haven’t seen a motherboard that didn’t let me enroll my own keys in a really long time. Laptops are a different story but even there, it’s been awhile.
> Microsoft forbid to sign software licensed under GPLv3 because of tivoization restriction license rule
Ah yes, GPLv3 is now Microsoft’s fault?
NekkoDroid 18 minutes ago [-]
> Is this really true, in 2019 when this was written or today?
This is true in the sense that they only ship with MS' keys as trusted, but all MoBos (including laptops) I had allow enrolling your own. Some might handle not having MS' keys better (or at all) than others, but it should in theory be possible to remove them, whether it will boot after is a different question (see option-ROM [1])
You are missing the point. It's the fault of those who pushed SecureBoot down our throats (and don't get me wrong: I use SecureBoot) to have decided that Microsoft had both a free-pass to have its certs by default in every UEFI out there but no other certs.
So users either have to understand how to enroll their own certs or to use a shim signed by... Microsoft.
Let's not forget that we're talking about the company responsible for Windows 11 here.
Bratmon 2 hours ago [-]
It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally stamp out desktop Linux once and for all failed because one of Microsoft's antivirus vendor partners couldn't write secure software to save their lives.
The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus vendors writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine forever.
invokestatic 1 hours ago [-]
No, this is not true at all. Microsoft requires their system vendors (Dell, HP, etc) to allow users to enroll their own Secure Boot keys through their “Designed for Windows” certification.
Further, many distributions are already compatible with Secure Boot and work out of the box. Whether or not giving Microsoft the UEFI root of trust was a good idea is questionable, but what they DO have is a long, established history of supporting Linux secure boot. They sign a UEFI shim that allows distributions to sign their kernels with their own, distribution-controlled keys in a way that just works on 99% of PCs.
mhitza 40 minutes ago [-]
Is it possible to un-enroll the Microsoft certificates, and just trust the efi shim?
NekkoDroid 23 minutes ago [-]
> Is it possible to un-enroll the Microslop certificates
Technically yes, with a massive fucking asterisk: Some option-ROM are signed with the MS certs and if your Motherboard doesn't support not loading those (whether needed or not) you will not be able to sometimes even POST.
With almost all modern motherboard firmware you can enter Setup mode and use KeyTool to configure the trust store however you want, starting from enrolling a user PK (Platform Key) upwards.
It’s generally a lot more secure to avoid the use of any shims (since they leave you vulnerable to what happened in this article) and just build a UEFI Kernel Image and sign that.
Some systems need third party firmware to reach the OS, and this can get a bit more complicated since those modules need to load with the new user keys, but overall what you are asking is generally possible.
> It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally stamp out desktop Linux once and for all
SecureBoot exists on servers too. And that's the domain of Linux, not Windows.
Microsoft should never have had so much influence in SecureBoot but there's no way they're getting rid of Linux on servers. Microsoft is mostly irrelevant there.
> The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus vendors writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine forever.
That's also a weird take. It's antivirus vendors who are going to be fine forever: they rely on Microsoft to write crappy insecure software. And that is a given.
bri3d 1 hours ago [-]
> It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally stamp out desktop Linux once and for all failed
This conspiracy was never true and never happened. First off, note that the first version of the thing in the article you’re commenting on relied on a Fedora shim loader which Microsoft signed. Second off, note that almost all modern motherboards let you enroll your own UEFI keys and do not rely on exclusively the Microsoft keys.
The only place this is was becoming an issue for Linux was early Secure Boot implementations where the vendor was too lazy to allow key enrollment, and that era has generally passed.
yjftsjthsd-h 29 minutes ago [-]
I don't think it deserves quite that easy a dismissal; MS did lock down early UEFI+ARM devices and prohibit user-controlled keys (see the Windows RT devices as an example). Given their history of playing dirty, it's perfectly reasonable that people assumed this to be another play at undermining Linux, even if things didn't end up going that way.
pbhjpbhj 18 minutes ago [-]
It's hard to believe when MS use secure boot to prevent Linux being able to boot. Twice now on my dual boot system a Windows update has prevented Linux being bootable. If it weren't for MS's history one might consider it the accident of a ridiculously inept company.
Even just the lies around required hw updates is enough not to trust them.
SecureBoot looks like a system designed to make it hard to change OS, it has been used by MS for that, MS have a history of user-antagonist actions.
You say the conspiracy was never true, I'm going to need some serious proof.
NekkoDroid 15 minutes ago [-]
> SecureBoot looks like a system designed to make it hard to change OS
To be fair SecureBoot is in a way just that: it is intended to only boot binaries that are signed with a key that has been enrolled into the UEFI. The main issue is like almost always how those keys are managed.
Rendered at 19:45:14 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
From that mindset what makes sense are hardware vendors including a cache of trusted third party root certificates from known other vendors. Today this would include Microsoft, the same said hardware vendor, probably various respected Linux organizations/groups (Offhand, Linux Foundation, ArchLinux, Debian, IBM/RedHat, Oracle, SUSE, etc), similar for BSD...
Crucially the end user should then be ASKED which to enable. None should be enrolled out of the box. They might also be enabled only for specific things. E.G. HW vendor could be enabled only for new system firmware signatures (load using the existing software) rather than generic UEFI boot targets. The user should also be able to enroll their own CA certs as well; multiple of them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit, and system local signatures.
It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform access API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-storage space. This would be a great place to stash things like UEFI drivers for accessing additional types of hardware drivers, OS boot bits + small related files, etc. I would have said 1GB of storage would be more than sufficient for this - however Microsoft has proven that assumption incorrect. Still it'd be nice to have a standard place and a feature that says the system ships with this much reliable secondary storage included (or maybe 1-2 micro-SD card slots, etc).
IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
This way it is entirely agnostic of any cherrypicked list of "trust me" vendors. You'd still have most of the benefits of easy secure boot enrolling for those that don't know what it even is/how to do it while also allowing easy choosing of other OSes (at least on initial first boot).
The main problem currently is option-ROM which has a tendency to cause the system to not even POST if secure boot is enabled without MS keys. Recently bricked a MoBo this way and even though it has 2 BIOS I can't actively choose which one to boot, it just has some "trust me, I know when" logic that chooses... well guess how well that is working for me...). The Asrock board I replaced it with though has an option for what it should do with such option-ROM when secure boot is active (don't run, always run, run if signed, ...)
> The user should also be able to enroll their own CA certs as well; multiple of them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit, and system local signatures.
Isn't this already the status quo??
> It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform access API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-storage space. [...]
I think UEFI is already complex enough and most of this can in a way already somewhat be handled by the EFI System Partition, e.g. systemd-boot can tell the UEFI to load (file system) drivers off of it (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd-boot#Supported_file...), I don't know if UEFI technically supports other types of drivers to be loaded.
Nobody wants to "install" an operating system. Computers should come with an OS preinstalled and ready to run. Everything else is a dead letter in terms of the marketplace.
The end user wants to be able to just pick up a computer from Best Buy and have it work, out of the box.
Microsoft can't even conceptualize why you would want to run anything but the Windows that came with the machine. If the expected Windows kernel and files aren't there, or have been altered, that is evidence of malicious tampering—malware that must be stopped. (I'm deliberately steelmanning their perspective here.)
Streaming services want a secure content path. Game vendors want protection against cheating. In order to comply with local/regional/national laws, web sites need you to verify your age, and they need to know your computer is not lying (remote attestation). Nobody wants to be hacked.
The incentives for everyone else besides techies align against techies getting to run arbitrary code on their devices. The Secure Boot system is working precisely as designed.
except, on the other side of the "strange fellows" are people who rose to executive authority by ruthless focus on control of every aspect of their business, and profit including excluding others who did actual work. There is zero point zero chance of any argument that relies on "should" to work IMHO
this is a political situation by definition -- vastly different yet connected members of society and economics, seeking the rule of law to enable stable markets. hint- some of the same decision makers are the ones that pay to put spy code in your large new TV or appliances.
The biggest weakness of secure boot was always third-party vendors shipping "insecure" bootloaders. It's a lot of work to verify signatures for every bit of data that gets loaded, especially on the PC platform.
Is this really true, in 2019 when this was written or today? I haven’t seen a motherboard that didn’t let me enroll my own keys in a really long time. Laptops are a different story but even there, it’s been awhile.
> Microsoft forbid to sign software licensed under GPLv3 because of tivoization restriction license rule
Ah yes, GPLv3 is now Microsoft’s fault?
This is true in the sense that they only ship with MS' keys as trusted, but all MoBos (including laptops) I had allow enrolling your own. Some might handle not having MS' keys better (or at all) than others, but it should in theory be possible to remove them, whether it will boot after is a different question (see option-ROM [1])
[1]: https://github.com/Foxboron/sbctl/wiki/FAQ#option-rom
You are missing the point. It's the fault of those who pushed SecureBoot down our throats (and don't get me wrong: I use SecureBoot) to have decided that Microsoft had both a free-pass to have its certs by default in every UEFI out there but no other certs.
So users either have to understand how to enroll their own certs or to use a shim signed by... Microsoft.
Let's not forget that we're talking about the company responsible for Windows 11 here.
The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus vendors writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine forever.
Further, many distributions are already compatible with Secure Boot and work out of the box. Whether or not giving Microsoft the UEFI root of trust was a good idea is questionable, but what they DO have is a long, established history of supporting Linux secure boot. They sign a UEFI shim that allows distributions to sign their kernels with their own, distribution-controlled keys in a way that just works on 99% of PCs.
Technically yes, with a massive fucking asterisk: Some option-ROM are signed with the MS certs and if your Motherboard doesn't support not loading those (whether needed or not) you will not be able to sometimes even POST.
https://github.com/Foxboron/sbctl/wiki/FAQ#option-rom
It’s generally a lot more secure to avoid the use of any shims (since they leave you vulnerable to what happened in this article) and just build a UEFI Kernel Image and sign that.
Some systems need third party firmware to reach the OS, and this can get a bit more complicated since those modules need to load with the new user keys, but overall what you are asking is generally possible.
examples and documentation welcome
SecureBoot exists on servers too. And that's the domain of Linux, not Windows.
Microsoft should never have had so much influence in SecureBoot but there's no way they're getting rid of Linux on servers. Microsoft is mostly irrelevant there.
> The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus vendors writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine forever.
That's also a weird take. It's antivirus vendors who are going to be fine forever: they rely on Microsoft to write crappy insecure software. And that is a given.
This conspiracy was never true and never happened. First off, note that the first version of the thing in the article you’re commenting on relied on a Fedora shim loader which Microsoft signed. Second off, note that almost all modern motherboards let you enroll your own UEFI keys and do not rely on exclusively the Microsoft keys.
The only place this is was becoming an issue for Linux was early Secure Boot implementations where the vendor was too lazy to allow key enrollment, and that era has generally passed.
Even just the lies around required hw updates is enough not to trust them.
SecureBoot looks like a system designed to make it hard to change OS, it has been used by MS for that, MS have a history of user-antagonist actions.
You say the conspiracy was never true, I'm going to need some serious proof.
To be fair SecureBoot is in a way just that: it is intended to only boot binaries that are signed with a key that has been enrolled into the UEFI. The main issue is like almost always how those keys are managed.