It's funny to me that people should look at this situation and say "this is OK".
The upshot of all these projects to make JS tools faster is a fractured ecosystem. Who if given the choice would honestly want to try to maintain Javascript tools written in a mixture of Rust and Go? Already we've seemingly committed to having a big schism in the middle. And the new tools don't replace the old ones, so to own your tools you'll need to make Rust, Go, and JS all work together using a mix of clean modern technology and shims into horribly legacy technology. We have to maintain everything, old and new, because it's all still critical, engineers have to learn everything, old and new, because it's all still critical.
All I really see is an explosion of complexity.
CodingJeebus 3 hours ago [-]
> We have to maintain everything, old and new, because it's all still critical, engineers have to learn everything, old and new, because it's all still critical.
I completely agree but maintenance is a maintainer problem, not the consumer or user of the package, at least according to the average user of open source nowadays. One of two things are come out of this: either the wheels start falling off once the community can no longer maintain this fractured tooling as you point out, or companies are going to pick up the slack and start stewarding it (likely looking for opportunities to capture tooling and profit along the way).
Neither outcome looks particularly appealing.
NewsaHackO 2 hours ago [-]
Yes, this just sounds like the run-of-the-mill specialization issue that is affecting every industry (and has been affecting every industry before AI). Web devs learn Javascript/Typescript/frameworks, "middleware" developers learn Rust/Go/C++/etc. to build the web development frameworks, lower-level devs build that, etc. There shouldn’t be a strict need for someone who wants to make websites or web technology to learn Rust or Go unless they want to break into web framework development or WASM stuff. But again, this is just over-specialization that has been happening since forever (or at least since the Industrial revolution).
riskable 4 hours ago [-]
> All I really see is an explosion of complexity.
I thought this was the point of all development in the JavaScript/web ecosystem?
co_king_5 3 hours ago [-]
In retrospect, the tolerance for excess complexity in the JS/npm/yarn/web framework ecosystem was an important precursor to the wanton overconsumption of today's LLM ecosystem.
cod1r 3 hours ago [-]
It's definitely an explosion of complexity but also something that AI can help
manage. So :shrug: ...
Based on current trends, I don't think people care about knowing how all the parts work (even before these powerful LLMs came along) as long as the job gets done and things get shipped and it mostly works.
fsmedberg 4 hours ago [-]
I'm very surprised the article doesn't mention Bun. Bun is significantly faster than Vite & Rolldown, if it's simply speed one is aiming for. More importantly Bun allows for simplicity. Install Bun, you get Bundler included and TypeScript just works, and it's blazing fast.
yurishimo 3 hours ago [-]
IMO Bun and Vite are best suited for slightly different things. Not to say that there isn't a lot of overlap, but if you don't need many of the features Bun provides, it can be a bit overkill.
Personally, I write a lot of Vue, so using a "first party" environment has a lot of advantages for me. Perhaps if you are a React developer, the swap might be even more straightforward.
I also think it's important to take into consideration the other two packages mentioned in this post (oxlint & oxfmt) because they are first class citizens in Vite (and soon to be Vite+). Bun might be a _technically_ faster dev server, but if your other tools are still slow, that might be a moot point.
Also, Typescript also "just works" in Vite as well. I have a project on work that is using `.ts` files without even an `tsconfig` file in the project.
It's been a while since I've tried it, but post-1.0 release of Bun still seemed like beta software and I would get all sorts of hard to understand errors while building a simple CRUD app. My impression from the project is the maintainers were adding so many features that they were spread too thin. Hopefully it's a little more stable now.
canadiantim 4 hours ago [-]
Bun can replace vite?
netghost 2 hours ago [-]
Bun ships with lots of tools built in. It has support for bundling js, html, etc for the browser.
I suspect that if you want the best results or to hit all the edge cases you'd still want vite, but bun probably covers most needs.
gaoshan 3 hours ago [-]
This smells of "I like to solve puzzles and fiddle with things" and reminds of hours spent satisfyingly tweaking my very specific and custom setups for various things technical.
I, too, like to fiddle with optimizations and tool configuration puzzles but I need to get things done and get them done now. It doesn't seem fast, it seems cumbersome and inconsistent.
ssgodderidge 2 hours ago [-]
> It doesn't seem fast, it seems cumbersome and inconsistent
I think the point of this project is to provide an opinionated set of templates aimed at shipping instead of tinkering, right? "Don't tinker with the backend frameworks, just use this and focus on building the business logic."
conradkay 24 minutes ago [-]
It seems like all you have to do is paste 2-3 prompts
insin 2 hours ago [-]
Any plans to create a combined server + web app template using @hono/vite-dev-server for local development, with both sides of auth preconfigured, with the server serving up the built web app in production?
I've used this setup for my last few projects and it's so painless, and with recent versions of Node.js which can strip TypeScript types I don't even need a build step for the server code.
Edit: oops, I didn't see nkzw-tech/fate-template, which has something like this, but running client and server separately instead
austin-cheney 3 hours ago [-]
Any method for front end tooling is potentially the fastest. It always comes to what you measure and how you measure it. If you don't have any measures at all then your favorite method is always the fastest no matter what, because you live in a world without evidence.
Even after consideration of measurements radical performance improvements are most typically the result of the code's organization and techniques employed than the language its written in. But, of course, that cannot be validated without evidence from comparison of measurements.
The tragic part of all this is that everybody already knows this, but most front end developers do not measure things and may become hostile when measurements do occur that contradict their favorite techniques.
codingdave 3 hours ago [-]
I have yet to meet a front-end dev that gets hostile when you show them how their code can be improved. On the contrary, the folks I have worked with are thrilled to improve their craft.
Unless of course you are not showing them improvements and are instead just shitting on their work. Yes, people do get hostile to that approach.
austin-cheney 2 hours ago [-]
Then you and I are talking to different people. Fortunately, I don't work in JavaScript for employment any more. As a frame of reference just the mere mention that a site could be 50-200x faster by dumping React creates conflicts of interests for impacted developers and the results are typically not immediately welcoming. That isn't shitting on anybody's work, especially if you provide guidance for improvement, but if a large group of developers cannot function without React their perception of "shitting on their work" will be less objective.
johnfn 52 minutes ago [-]
It doesn't surprise me that you got a lot of people upset at you. "Dumping React" is not a viable strategy for the large majority of organizations. It's like saying you could make your backend run faster by rewriting it into assembly.
EvgheniDem 5 hours ago [-]
The bit about strict guardrails helping LLMs write better code matches what we have been seeing. We ran the same task in loose vs strict lint configurations and the output quality difference was noticeable.
What was surprising is that it wasn't just about catching errors after generation. The model seemed to anticipate the constraints and generated cleaner code from the start. My working theory is that strict, typed configs give the model a cleaner context to reason from, almost like telling it what good code looks like before it starts.
The piece I still haven't solved: even with perfect guardrails per file, models frequently lose track of cross-file invariants. You can have every individual component lint-clean and still end up with a codebase that silently breaks when components interact. That seems like the next layer of the problem.
newzino 2 hours ago [-]
[dead]
takeaura25 4 hours ago [-]
We've been building our frontend with AI assistance and the bottleneck has shifted from writing code to reviewing it. Faster tooling helps, but I wonder if the next big gain is in tighter feedback loops — seeing your changes live as the AI generates them, rather than waiting for a full build cycle.
the_harpia_io 2 hours ago [-]
the ecosystem fragmentation thing hit me pretty hard when i was trying to set up a consistent linting workflow across a mono-repo last year. half the team already using biome, half still on eslint+prettier, and adding any shared tooling meant either duplicating config or just picking a side and upsetting someone
i get why the rust/go tools exist - the perf gains are measurable. but the cognitive overhead is real. new engineer joins, they now need 3 different mental models just to make a PR. not sure AI helps here either honestly, it just makes it easier to copy-paste configs you don't fully understand
sunaookami 2 hours ago [-]
Oxfmt!? I just switched from ESLint and Prettier to Biome!
I'm confused by this, but also curious what we mean by "fastest".
In my experience, the bottleneck has always been backend dev and testing.
I was hoping "tooling" meant faster testing, not yet another layer of frontend dev. Frontend dev is pretty fast even when done completely by hand for the last decade or so. I have and have also seen others livecode on 15 minute calls with stakeholders or QA to mock some UI or debug. I've seen people deliver the final results from that meeting just a couple of hours later. I say this as in, that's what's going to prod minus some very specific edge case bugs that might even get argued away and never fixed.
Not trying to be defensive of pure human coding skills, but sometimes I wonder if we've rolled back expectations in the past few years. All this recent stuff seems even more complicated and more error prone, and frontend is already those things.
whstl 2 hours ago [-]
It's about raw performance. The tools mentioned mostly optimize for fast parsing, fast compilation/transpilation, etc.
Rendered at 18:12:46 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
The upshot of all these projects to make JS tools faster is a fractured ecosystem. Who if given the choice would honestly want to try to maintain Javascript tools written in a mixture of Rust and Go? Already we've seemingly committed to having a big schism in the middle. And the new tools don't replace the old ones, so to own your tools you'll need to make Rust, Go, and JS all work together using a mix of clean modern technology and shims into horribly legacy technology. We have to maintain everything, old and new, because it's all still critical, engineers have to learn everything, old and new, because it's all still critical.
All I really see is an explosion of complexity.
I completely agree but maintenance is a maintainer problem, not the consumer or user of the package, at least according to the average user of open source nowadays. One of two things are come out of this: either the wheels start falling off once the community can no longer maintain this fractured tooling as you point out, or companies are going to pick up the slack and start stewarding it (likely looking for opportunities to capture tooling and profit along the way).
Neither outcome looks particularly appealing.
I thought this was the point of all development in the JavaScript/web ecosystem?
Based on current trends, I don't think people care about knowing how all the parts work (even before these powerful LLMs came along) as long as the job gets done and things get shipped and it mostly works.
Personally, I write a lot of Vue, so using a "first party" environment has a lot of advantages for me. Perhaps if you are a React developer, the swap might be even more straightforward.
I also think it's important to take into consideration the other two packages mentioned in this post (oxlint & oxfmt) because they are first class citizens in Vite (and soon to be Vite+). Bun might be a _technically_ faster dev server, but if your other tools are still slow, that might be a moot point.
Also, Typescript also "just works" in Vite as well. I have a project on work that is using `.ts` files without even an `tsconfig` file in the project.
https://vite.dev/guide/features#typescript
I suspect that if you want the best results or to hit all the edge cases you'd still want vite, but bun probably covers most needs.
I, too, like to fiddle with optimizations and tool configuration puzzles but I need to get things done and get them done now. It doesn't seem fast, it seems cumbersome and inconsistent.
I think the point of this project is to provide an opinionated set of templates aimed at shipping instead of tinkering, right? "Don't tinker with the backend frameworks, just use this and focus on building the business logic."
I've used this setup for my last few projects and it's so painless, and with recent versions of Node.js which can strip TypeScript types I don't even need a build step for the server code.
Edit: oops, I didn't see nkzw-tech/fate-template, which has something like this, but running client and server separately instead
Even after consideration of measurements radical performance improvements are most typically the result of the code's organization and techniques employed than the language its written in. But, of course, that cannot be validated without evidence from comparison of measurements.
The tragic part of all this is that everybody already knows this, but most front end developers do not measure things and may become hostile when measurements do occur that contradict their favorite techniques.
Unless of course you are not showing them improvements and are instead just shitting on their work. Yes, people do get hostile to that approach.
What was surprising is that it wasn't just about catching errors after generation. The model seemed to anticipate the constraints and generated cleaner code from the start. My working theory is that strict, typed configs give the model a cleaner context to reason from, almost like telling it what good code looks like before it starts.
The piece I still haven't solved: even with perfect guardrails per file, models frequently lose track of cross-file invariants. You can have every individual component lint-clean and still end up with a codebase that silently breaks when components interact. That seems like the next layer of the problem.
i get why the rust/go tools exist - the perf gains are measurable. but the cognitive overhead is real. new engineer joins, they now need 3 different mental models just to make a PR. not sure AI helps here either honestly, it just makes it easier to copy-paste configs you don't fully understand
In my experience, the bottleneck has always been backend dev and testing.
I was hoping "tooling" meant faster testing, not yet another layer of frontend dev. Frontend dev is pretty fast even when done completely by hand for the last decade or so. I have and have also seen others livecode on 15 minute calls with stakeholders or QA to mock some UI or debug. I've seen people deliver the final results from that meeting just a couple of hours later. I say this as in, that's what's going to prod minus some very specific edge case bugs that might even get argued away and never fixed.
Not trying to be defensive of pure human coding skills, but sometimes I wonder if we've rolled back expectations in the past few years. All this recent stuff seems even more complicated and more error prone, and frontend is already those things.