type Stream<T> = {
next(): { done, value: T } | Promise<{ done, value: T }>
}
Obviously I'm gonna be biased, but I'm pretty sure my version is also objectively superior:
- I can easily make mine from theirs
- In theirs the conceptual "stream" is defined by an iterator of iterators, meaning you need a for loop of for loops to step through it. In mine it's just one iterator and it can be consumed with one for loop.
- I'm not limited to having only streams of integers, they are
- My way, if I define a sync transform over a sync input, the whole iteration can be sync making it possible to get and use the result in sync functions. This is huge as otherwise you have to write all the code twice: once with sync iterator and for loops and once with async iterators and for await loops.
- The problem with thrashing Promises when splitting input up into words goes away. With async iterators, creating two words means creating two promises. With stream iterators if you have the data available there's no need for promises at all, you just yield it.
- Stream iterators can help you manage concurrency, which is a huge thing that async iterators cannot do. Async iterators can't do this because if they see a promise they will always wait for it. That's the same as saying "if there is any concurrency, it will always be eliminated."
Joker_vD 29 minutes ago [-]
> Obviously I'm gonna be biased, but I'm pretty sure my version is also objectively superior:
> - I can easily make mine from theirs
That... doesn't make it superior? On the contrary, theirs can't be easily made out of yours, except by either returning trivial 1-byte chunks, or by arbitrary buffering. So their proposal is a superior primitive.
On the whole, I/O-oriented iterators probably should return chunks of T, otherwise you get buffer bloat for free. The readv/writev were introduced for a reason, you know.
conartist6 8 minutes ago [-]
As an abstraction I would say it does make mine superior that it captures everything theirs can and more that theirs can't.
Plus theirs involves the very concrete definition of an array, which might have 100 prototype methods in JS, each part of their API surface. I have one function in my API surface.
flowerbreeze 8 minutes ago [-]
I think the more generic stream concept is interesting, but their proposal is based on different underlying assumptions.
From what it looks like, they want their streams to be compatible with AsyncIterator so it'd fit into existing ecosystem of iterators.
And I believe the Uint8Array is there for matching OS streams as they tend to move batches of bytes without having knowledge about the data inside. It's probably not intended as an entirely new concept of a stream, but something that C/C++ or other language that can provide functionality for JS, can do underneath.
For example my personal pet project of a graph database written in C has observers/observables that are similar to the AsyncIterator streams (except one observable can be listened to by more than one observer) moving about batches of Uint8Array (or rather uint8_t* buffer with capacity/count), because it's one of the fastest and easiest thing to do in C.
It'd be a lot more work to use anything other than uint8_t* batches for streaming data. What I mean by that, is that any other protocol that is aware of the type information would be built on top of the streams, rather than being part of the stream protocol itself for this reason.
paxys 27 minutes ago [-]
There is no such thing as Uint8Array<T>. Uint8Array is a primitive for a bunch of bytes, because that is what data is in a stream.
Adding types on top of that isn't a protocol concern but an application-level one.
conartist6 48 minutes ago [-]
There's one more interesting consequence: you rid yourself of the feedback problem.
To see the problem let's create a stream with feedback. Lets say we have an assembly line that produces muffins from ingredients, and the recipe says that every third muffin we produce must be mushed up and used as an ingredient for further muffins. This works OK until someone adds a final stage to the assembly line, which puts muffins in boxes of 12. Now the line gets completely stuck! It can't get a muffin to use on the start of the line because it hasn't made a full box of muffins yet, and it can't make a full box of muffins because it's starved for ingredients after 3.
If we're mandated to clump the items together we're implicitly assuming that there's no feedback, yet there's also no reason that feedback shouldn't be a first-class ability of streams.
paulddraper 24 minutes ago [-]
Your idea is flatten the UInt8Array into the stream.
While I understand the logic, that's a terrible idea.
* The overhead is massive. Now every 1KiB turns into 1024 objects. And terrible locality.
* Raw byte APIs...network, fs, etc fundamentally operate on byte arrays anyway.
In the most respectful way possible...this idea would only be appealing to someone who's not used to optimizing systems for efficiency.
conartist6 13 minutes ago [-]
JS engines actually are optimized to make that usage pattern fast.
Small, short-lived objects with known key ordering (monomorphism) are not a major cost in JS because the GC design is generational. The smallest, youngest generation of objects can be quickly collected with an incremental GC because the perf assumption is that most of the items in the youngest generation will be garbage. This allows collection to be optimized by first finding the live objects in the gen0 pool, copying them out, then throwing away the old gen0 pool memory and replacing it with a new chunk.
bikeshaving 24 minutes ago [-]
A long time ago, I wrote an abstraction called a Repeater. Essentially, the idea behind it is, what would the Promise constructor look like if it was translated to async iterables.
import { Repeater } from "@repeaterjs/repeater";
const keys = new Repeater(async (push, stop) => {
const listener = (ev) => {
if (ev.key === "Escape") {
stop();
} else {
push(ev.key);
}
};
window.addEventListener("keyup", listener);
await stop;
window.removeEventListener("keyup", listener);
});
const konami = ["ArrowUp", "ArrowUp", "ArrowDown", "ArrowDown", "ArrowLeft", "ArrowRight", "ArrowLeft", "ArrowRight", "b", "a"];
(async function() {
let i = 0;
for await (const key of keys) {
if (key === konami[i]) {
i++;
} else {
i = 0;
}
if (i >= konami.length) {
console.log("KONAMI!!!");
break; // removes the keyup listener
}
}
})();
It’s one of those abstractions that’s feature complete and stable, and looking at NPM it’s apparently getting 6.5mil+ downloads a week for some reason.
Lately I’ve just taken the opposite view of the author, which is that we should just use streams, especially with how embedded they are in the `fetch` proposals and whatever. But the tee critique is devastating, so maybe the author is right. It’s exciting to see people are still thinking about this. I do think async iterables as the default abstraction is the way to go.
boilerupnc 16 minutes ago [-]
Off topic - But just wanna say - Love the cheat code! 30 Lives added :-)
Nostalgia runs deep with that code. So deep - in fact, that I sign many of my emails off with "Sent by hitting Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A"
tracker1 14 minutes ago [-]
One minor niggle on freeing resources... I'm hoping it becomes more popular with libraries, but there's using/await using with disppse/disposeAsync which works similarly to C#'s use of using.
I'm working on a db driver that uses it by convention as part of connection/pool usage cleanup.
z3t4 32 minutes ago [-]
I like Node.JS streams. It's very satisfying to rent a 250MB memory machine and let it process GB's of data using streams.
ai-christianson 1 hours ago [-]
The point about BYOB reads is spot on. It's frustrating that such a critical feature for performance and reducing GC pressure ended up being so difficult to implement correctly in the WHATWG standard. A simpler, more ergonomic approach to buffer management would go a long way for those of us building high-performance data processing tools in JS.
jitl 4 minutes ago [-]
but instead of trying to solve that, this api is just like “too hard no one uses it let’s forget about it”.
right now when i need to wrangle bytes, i switch languages to Golang. it’s easy gc language, and all its IO is built around BYOB api:
you pass in your own Uint8Array allocation (in go terms, []byte), the reader fills at most the entire thing, and returns (bytes filled, error). it’s a fully pull stream API with one method at its core. now, the api gets to be that simple because it’s always sync, and blocks until the reader can fill data into the buffer or returns an error indicating no data available right now.
go has a TeeReader with no buffering - it too just blocks until it can write to the forked stream.
we can’t do the same api in JS, because go gets to insert `await` wherever it wants with its coroutine/goroutine runtime. but we can dream of such simplicity combined with zero allocation performance.
slowcache 59 minutes ago [-]
> high-performance data processing tools in JS
I may be naive in asking this, but what leads someone to building high perf data tools in JS? JS doesn't seem to me like it would be the tool of choice for such things
n_e 42 minutes ago [-]
I have a SaaS project where the backend is in JS. I also have some data processing to do with large file (several TB). Doing it is in JS is more convenient as I can reuse code from the backend, and it is also the language I know best.
Performance-wise, I get about half the throughput I had with the same processsing done it rust, which doesn't change anything for my use-case.
However that's not really relevant to the context of the post as I'm using node.js streams which are both saner and fast. I'm guessing that the post is relevant to people using server-side runtimes that only implement web streams.
moron4hire 29 minutes ago [-]
You don't always have a choice on where you deliver your software. It'd be nice to have good tools wherever you are forced to work.
thadt 45 minutes ago [-]
Browsers
speed_spread 33 minutes ago [-]
Since when are browsers themselves built in JavaScript? Mainstream, fast ones?
shevy-java 1 hours ago [-]
We deserve a better language than JavaScript.
Sadly it will never happen. WebAssembly failed to keep some of its promises here.
gejose 58 minutes ago [-]
There's always a comment like this in most discussions about javascript.
postalrat 1 hours ago [-]
Where can I find these not kept promises?
nindalf 54 minutes ago [-]
They haven't yet made languages other than JavaScript first-class languages for the web - https://hacks.mozilla.org/2026/02/making-webassembly-a-first.... I wouldn't call this a broken promise, but it was something people were hoping would take less than a decade.
paulddraper 16 minutes ago [-]
Just use AsyncIterator<UIntArray>.
The objection is
> The Web streams spec requires promise creation at numerous points — often in hot paths and often invisible to users. Each read() call doesn't just return a promise; internally, the implementation creates additional promises for queue management, pull() coordination, and backpressure signaling.
But that's 95% manageable by altering buffer sizes.
And as for that last 5%....what are you doing with JS to begin with?
dilap 1 hours ago [-]
> The problems aren't bugs; they're consequences of design decisions that may have made sense a decade ago, but don't align with how JavaScript developers write code today.
> I'm not here to disparage the work that came before — I'm here to start a conversation about what can potentially come next.
Terrible LLM-slop style. Is Mr Snell letting an LLM write the article for him or has he just appropriated the style?
jasnell 39 minutes ago [-]
Heh, I was using emdashes and tricolons long before LLMs appropriated the style but I did let the agent handle some of the details on this. Honestly, it really is just easier sometimes... Especially for blogs posts like this when I've also got a book I'm writing, code to maintain etc. Use tools available to make life easier.
dilap 6 minutes ago [-]
I think you'd be much better served by writing something rough that maintains your own voice!
silisili 20 minutes ago [-]
I'm not sure any emdash use at all is what people are calling out typically(maybe it is?), more the sheer number of them typical in LLM written stuff.
Just ctrl-f'ing through previous public posts, I think there were a total of 7 used across about that many posts. This one for example had 57. I'm not good enough in proper English to know what the normal number is supposed to be, just pointing that out.
n_e 22 minutes ago [-]
I found your article both interesting and readable.
It doesn't really matter what tools are used if the result is good
eis 27 minutes ago [-]
People are understandably a bit sensitized and sceptical after the last AI generated blog post (and code slop!) by Cloudflare blew up. Personally I'm fine with using AI to help write stuff as long as everything is proof-read and actually represents the authors thoughts. I would have opted to be a bit more careful and not use AI for a few blog posts after the last incident though if I was working at Cloudflare...
azangru 44 minutes ago [-]
What was it specifically about the style that stood out as incongruous, or that hindered comprehension? What was it that made you stumble and start paying close attention to the style rather than to the message? I am looking at the two examples, and I can't see anything wrong with them, especially in the context of the article. They both employ the same rhetorical technique of antithesis, a juxtaposition of contrasting ideas. Surely people wrote like this before? Surely no-one complained?
jsheard 21 minutes ago [-]
The problem is less with the style itself and more that it's a strong indicator of low-effort content which is going to waste the readers time. It would be nice to be able to give everything the benefit of the doubt, but humans have finite time and LLMs have infinite capacity for wasting their time, so readers end up refexivly using LLM tells as a litmus test for (lack of) quality.
You might say well, it's on the Cloudflare blog so obviously it must have some merit, but after the Matrix incident...
nebezb 38 minutes ago [-]
The idea is well articulated and comes across clear. What’s the issue? Taking a magnifying glass to the whole article to find sentence structure you think is “LLM-slop” is an odd way to dismiss the article entirely.
I’ve read my fair share of LLM slop. This doesn’t qualify.
lapcat 1 hours ago [-]
You’ve got it backwards: LLMs were trained on human writing and appropriated our style.
have_faith 44 minutes ago [-]
Partially true. They've been trained and then aligned towards a preferred style. They don't use em-dashes because they are over-represented in the training material (majority of people don't use them).
lapcat 21 minutes ago [-]
It seems likely that with the written word, as with most things, a minority of people produce the majority of content. Most people publish relatively few words compared to professional writers.
Possibly the LLM vendors could bias the models more toward nonprofessional content, but then the quality and utility of the output would suffer. Skip the scientific articles and books, focus on rando internet comments, and you’ll end up with a lot more crap than you already get.
jitl 1 hours ago [-]
cloudflare does seem to love ai written everything
kg 2 hours ago [-]
It's a real shame that BYOB (bring your own buffer) reads are so complex and such a pain in the neck because for large reads they make a huge difference in terms of GC traffic (for allocating temporary buffers) and CPU time (for the copies).
In an ideal world you could just ask the host to stream 100MB of stuff into a byte array or slice of the wasm heap. Alas.
amluto 58 minutes ago [-]
I wonder if you can get most of the benefit BYOB with a much simpler API:
for await (const chunk of stream) {
// process the chunk
stream.returnChunk(chunk);
}
This would be entirely optional. If you don’t return the chunk and instead let GC free it, you get the normal behavior. If you do return it, then the stream is permitted to return it again later.
(Lately I’ve been thinking that a really nice stream or receive API would return an object with a linear type so that you must consume it and possibly even return it. This would make it impossible to write code where task cancellation causes you to lose received data. Sadly, mainstream languages can’t do this directly.)
murmansk 55 minutes ago [-]
For gods sake, finally, somebody have said this!
ralusek 47 minutes ago [-]
I tinkered with an alternative to stream interfaces:
And then because I found that I often want to switch between batching items vs dealing with single items:
infiniteRecords
.map(item => doSomeAsyncSingularThing(item), { concurrency: 5 })
.map(groupOf10 => doSomeBatchThing(groupsOf10), { batchSize: 10 })
// Can flatten back to single items
.map(item => backToSingleItem(item), { flatten: true });
user3939382 2 hours ago [-]
“ The Streams Standard was developed between 2014 and 2016 with an ambitious goal to provide "APIs for creating, composing, and consuming streams of data that map efficiently to low-level I/O primitives." Before Web streams, the web platform had no standard way to work with streaming data.”
This is what UDP is for. Everything actually has to be async all the way down and since it’s not, we’ll just completely reimplement the OS and network on top of itself and hey maybe when we’re done with that we can do it a third time to have the cloud of clouds.
The entire stack we’re using right down to the hardware is not fit for purpose and we’re burning our talent and money building these ever more brittle towering abstractions.
afavour 2 hours ago [-]
UDP is a protocol, not an API
delaminator 1 hours ago [-]
We're too busy building products while waiting for the perfect system to arrive.
user3939382 20 minutes ago [-]
I’m building everything from first principles, I’m not climbing the exponential curve with some billionaire that has to finance it.
delaminator 7 minutes ago [-]
I really doubt you are. you're not visiting the transistor shop every time you want to build a react component
animanoir 42 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
Feathercrown 2 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Rendered at 16:17:17 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
They propose just using an async iterator of UInt8Array. I almost like this idea, but it's not quite all the way there.
They propose this:
I propose this, which I call a stream iterator! Obviously I'm gonna be biased, but I'm pretty sure my version is also objectively superior:- I can easily make mine from theirs
- In theirs the conceptual "stream" is defined by an iterator of iterators, meaning you need a for loop of for loops to step through it. In mine it's just one iterator and it can be consumed with one for loop.
- I'm not limited to having only streams of integers, they are
- My way, if I define a sync transform over a sync input, the whole iteration can be sync making it possible to get and use the result in sync functions. This is huge as otherwise you have to write all the code twice: once with sync iterator and for loops and once with async iterators and for await loops.
- The problem with thrashing Promises when splitting input up into words goes away. With async iterators, creating two words means creating two promises. With stream iterators if you have the data available there's no need for promises at all, you just yield it.
- Stream iterators can help you manage concurrency, which is a huge thing that async iterators cannot do. Async iterators can't do this because if they see a promise they will always wait for it. That's the same as saying "if there is any concurrency, it will always be eliminated."
> - I can easily make mine from theirs
That... doesn't make it superior? On the contrary, theirs can't be easily made out of yours, except by either returning trivial 1-byte chunks, or by arbitrary buffering. So their proposal is a superior primitive.
On the whole, I/O-oriented iterators probably should return chunks of T, otherwise you get buffer bloat for free. The readv/writev were introduced for a reason, you know.
Plus theirs involves the very concrete definition of an array, which might have 100 prototype methods in JS, each part of their API surface. I have one function in my API surface.
From what it looks like, they want their streams to be compatible with AsyncIterator so it'd fit into existing ecosystem of iterators.
And I believe the Uint8Array is there for matching OS streams as they tend to move batches of bytes without having knowledge about the data inside. It's probably not intended as an entirely new concept of a stream, but something that C/C++ or other language that can provide functionality for JS, can do underneath.
For example my personal pet project of a graph database written in C has observers/observables that are similar to the AsyncIterator streams (except one observable can be listened to by more than one observer) moving about batches of Uint8Array (or rather uint8_t* buffer with capacity/count), because it's one of the fastest and easiest thing to do in C.
It'd be a lot more work to use anything other than uint8_t* batches for streaming data. What I mean by that, is that any other protocol that is aware of the type information would be built on top of the streams, rather than being part of the stream protocol itself for this reason.
Adding types on top of that isn't a protocol concern but an application-level one.
To see the problem let's create a stream with feedback. Lets say we have an assembly line that produces muffins from ingredients, and the recipe says that every third muffin we produce must be mushed up and used as an ingredient for further muffins. This works OK until someone adds a final stage to the assembly line, which puts muffins in boxes of 12. Now the line gets completely stuck! It can't get a muffin to use on the start of the line because it hasn't made a full box of muffins yet, and it can't make a full box of muffins because it's starved for ingredients after 3.
If we're mandated to clump the items together we're implicitly assuming that there's no feedback, yet there's also no reason that feedback shouldn't be a first-class ability of streams.
While I understand the logic, that's a terrible idea.
* The overhead is massive. Now every 1KiB turns into 1024 objects. And terrible locality.
* Raw byte APIs...network, fs, etc fundamentally operate on byte arrays anyway.
In the most respectful way possible...this idea would only be appealing to someone who's not used to optimizing systems for efficiency.
Small, short-lived objects with known key ordering (monomorphism) are not a major cost in JS because the GC design is generational. The smallest, youngest generation of objects can be quickly collected with an incremental GC because the perf assumption is that most of the items in the youngest generation will be garbage. This allows collection to be optimized by first finding the live objects in the gen0 pool, copying them out, then throwing away the old gen0 pool memory and replacing it with a new chunk.
It’s one of those abstractions that’s feature complete and stable, and looking at NPM it’s apparently getting 6.5mil+ downloads a week for some reason.
Lately I’ve just taken the opposite view of the author, which is that we should just use streams, especially with how embedded they are in the `fetch` proposals and whatever. But the tee critique is devastating, so maybe the author is right. It’s exciting to see people are still thinking about this. I do think async iterables as the default abstraction is the way to go.
I'm working on a db driver that uses it by convention as part of connection/pool usage cleanup.
right now when i need to wrangle bytes, i switch languages to Golang. it’s easy gc language, and all its IO is built around BYOB api:
interface Reader { read(b: Uint8Array): [number, Error?] }
you pass in your own Uint8Array allocation (in go terms, []byte), the reader fills at most the entire thing, and returns (bytes filled, error). it’s a fully pull stream API with one method at its core. now, the api gets to be that simple because it’s always sync, and blocks until the reader can fill data into the buffer or returns an error indicating no data available right now.
go has a TeeReader with no buffering - it too just blocks until it can write to the forked stream.
https://pkg.go.dev/io#TeeReader
we can’t do the same api in JS, because go gets to insert `await` wherever it wants with its coroutine/goroutine runtime. but we can dream of such simplicity combined with zero allocation performance.
I may be naive in asking this, but what leads someone to building high perf data tools in JS? JS doesn't seem to me like it would be the tool of choice for such things
Performance-wise, I get about half the throughput I had with the same processsing done it rust, which doesn't change anything for my use-case.
However that's not really relevant to the context of the post as I'm using node.js streams which are both saner and fast. I'm guessing that the post is relevant to people using server-side runtimes that only implement web streams.
Sadly it will never happen. WebAssembly failed to keep some of its promises here.
The objection is
> The Web streams spec requires promise creation at numerous points — often in hot paths and often invisible to users. Each read() call doesn't just return a promise; internally, the implementation creates additional promises for queue management, pull() coordination, and backpressure signaling.
But that's 95% manageable by altering buffer sizes.
And as for that last 5%....what are you doing with JS to begin with?
> I'm not here to disparage the work that came before — I'm here to start a conversation about what can potentially come next.
Terrible LLM-slop style. Is Mr Snell letting an LLM write the article for him or has he just appropriated the style?
Just ctrl-f'ing through previous public posts, I think there were a total of 7 used across about that many posts. This one for example had 57. I'm not good enough in proper English to know what the normal number is supposed to be, just pointing that out.
It doesn't really matter what tools are used if the result is good
You might say well, it's on the Cloudflare blog so obviously it must have some merit, but after the Matrix incident...
I’ve read my fair share of LLM slop. This doesn’t qualify.
Possibly the LLM vendors could bias the models more toward nonprofessional content, but then the quality and utility of the output would suffer. Skip the scientific articles and books, focus on rando internet comments, and you’ll end up with a lot more crap than you already get.
In an ideal world you could just ask the host to stream 100MB of stuff into a byte array or slice of the wasm heap. Alas.
(Lately I’ve been thinking that a really nice stream or receive API would return an object with a linear type so that you must consume it and possibly even return it. This would make it impossible to write code where task cancellation causes you to lose received data. Sadly, mainstream languages can’t do this directly.)
https://github.com/ralusek/streamie
allows you to do things like
And then because I found that I often want to switch between batching items vs dealing with single items:This is what UDP is for. Everything actually has to be async all the way down and since it’s not, we’ll just completely reimplement the OS and network on top of itself and hey maybe when we’re done with that we can do it a third time to have the cloud of clouds.
The entire stack we’re using right down to the hardware is not fit for purpose and we’re burning our talent and money building these ever more brittle towering abstractions.