I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late.
You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived.
BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger commercial relationship can be settled in. Do not be a baby - go research business contracts and payment terms.
Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.
DataDaoDe 6 minutes ago [-]
Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance.
Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely.
One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do the right thing or keep their word.
Develop a system where even bad clients, can't do too much damage i.e. upfront deposits, milestone-based payments. You have to control cash flow risks, if you are gonna take risks know what risks you're taking and when to get out.
stronglikedan 1 minutes ago [-]
> Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance.
Sadly, while this is true, there are plenty of folks still doing freelance who have not learned this, and there always will be. It's just one of those lessons that quite a lot of people have to learn from experience, even after reading posts like this.
danesparza 37 seconds ago [-]
And for a rush job, don't be afraid to demand half the payment up front, or some other good-faith gesture on the client's part.
magicalhippo 45 minutes ago [-]
> Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.
My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing.
He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer.
stavros 22 minutes ago [-]
I'm not sure that's the best takeaway here, in that it gets the causation wrong. It's not the deal that made the customer bad, it's that the bad customer insisted on getting a deal, whereas a good customer usually knows what quality costs and is prepared to pay.
The takeaway here is probably that the fix isn't just "never discount", but it's to screen for the kind of customer who treats a good deal as an invitation to strengthen the relationship.
the_snooze 36 minutes ago [-]
A professional knows what they're worth and what they need to deliver. On-time payment according on an agreed-upon schedule is table stakes. That's the most fundamental requirement. Nothing happens without that.
righthand 47 minutes ago [-]
100% agree, and to add it can be tough sometimes to walk away from a cool project. I had worked on a project building scientific trial software, an app to review 3D lung scans, and an ML model to detect lesions in lung scans. It was really empowering, but after the first scientific trial the customer stopped paying their bills and ended up in back payment of $1M. My boss closed the project which sucked but it ultimately cost the company and people’s jobs. Just not worth interacting with bad people if they stop the agreement. There is most likely more money later but there is also money that is on time with other customers.
eckesicle 37 minutes ago [-]
We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do:
- Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner
- Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.
- In the event of a late payment the invoice for the next deliverable shall immediately fall due.
- The consultant shall be entitled to shift deadlines on deliverables in the event of a late payment as a result of any work disruption, without incurring any liability.
- Payment shall be made in X currency, or an exchange rate at X date on Oanda.com shall apply.
- The client is responsible for any bank fees incurred by their, or any intermediary bank. In the event of a SWIFT transaction it shall be made with the OUR payment code.
- The jurisdiction in the event of a conflict shall be England and Wales. Neither party shall be bound by arbitration.
- The client and consultant shall both indemnify the other up to the total value of the contract and shall not under any circumstance be liable beyond X GBP.
We also no longer share downloadable links of our deliverables until they are paid up. They get a view/comment only link for reports/data etc.
We’ve found that clients that aren’t willing to accept these terms won’t pay you either way.
We determine the net days on the invoice based on the credit rating of the client. Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. About 1% of contracts tend to fully or partially default on their payments.
We’re in a particularly credit poor industry but our average delay due to late payment is 23 days. Those clients where we stop delivery pay on average 11 days sooner than those contracts where we don’t stop delivery.
This is based on around 2,000 invoices sent over the last 5 years.
eckesicle 33 minutes ago [-]
Oh and another lesson! Ensuring that each deliverable invoice is small enough that it falls under the simplified claims procedure (in the UK it’s 10,000 pounds) greatly simplifies collection.
It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent.
You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anyway.
9 minutes ago [-]
yellow_lead 30 minutes ago [-]
It seems like none of these terms would have saved OP though
apt-apt-apt-apt 10 minutes ago [-]
Actually sort of darkly clever– they turned OP into an unwitting investor.
Project goes well, he gets paid and they're best buds, and he doesn't even realize he was scammed (by intent). If not, well there's no point suing a failed company.
InMice 40 minutes ago [-]
> I missed the month of May with my 2-year-old kid. My wife cared for a 2-year-old alone.
The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?
close04 15 minutes ago [-]
Reads to me like the author is trying to elicit some empathy. It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job. Not getting paid couldn’t have factored into that decision.
0x3f 13 minutes ago [-]
> It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job.
Or... maybe he needs income to exist.
17 minutes ago [-]
apt-apt-apt-apt 17 minutes ago [-]
Sometimes you just have to get scammed to be able to recognize scams. Seems obvious to outsiders, but can be hard to see when you're in it.
Some favorites:
- No way they would actually screw me over! We're buds/they got me tiger balm/they paid some/I did them a solid
- Thin veneer of safe fallbacks that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Legal or other 'repercussions'
- Endless delays and excuses (though it's usually too late by this point)
gnfargbl 1 hours ago [-]
> A contract is toilet paper
It isn't, but you can't get blood from a stone and squeezing costs money.
It sounds like the entity that the contract is with has no real assets and/or is based in a jurisdiction which is hard to enforce judgements in. That's a case where you need to get paid up-front, which is the real lesson in this article.
rglover 41 minutes ago [-]
Never do anything on faith or as a handshake deal. Always ensure you get paid (hint: escrow is kryptonite for weasels). Trust everyone, just not the devil inside them.
I don’t agree with this, using your gut and judging risk / reward is an important part of being in business. There is always risk, and it’s important to limit it, but it’s also important to take some smart chances.
chrisweekly 12 minutes ago [-]
> “Starting work without a contract is like putting on a condom after taking a home pregnancy test"
Choice quote from the linked talk (aptly titled "F*ck you, pay me").
rwmj 42 minutes ago [-]
What's an "AR bus"? How can augmented reality windows work on a bus unless you are (a) tracking the passenger's head and (b) there's only one passenger?
post-it 37 minutes ago [-]
Screens outside the windows (not on the windows) can provide parallax, no need to track heads. However, in this case:
> They were attempting to pull off AR effects on the transparent OLED windows of the bus without accounting for lens distortion, field of view, parallax, occlusion, etc., and were frustrated and mystified when things didn’t appear to line up. They were completely naive to what depth and scale cues are and how to deploy them.
bob1029 34 minutes ago [-]
I've started operating in really granular units of work. Like less than $1000 per. Cash on delivery. This won't work with all clients and all jobs, but there are places where it does work very well. Advantages include being able to avoid paper contracts altogether. Verbal agreements and a 4 column xlsx that is reviewed monthly are all that seem to be required with some of my clients.
If I don't get paid for one day of work, I will probably get over it in a few hours. If I don't get paid for six months of work, we will have a serious problem. The tighter and more incremental we can make the delivery process, the less likely anyone gets screwed.
If a party is pushing hard for long-term contracts or large up-front sums of payment, I would walk away from that transaction unless there was a literal golden goose sitting in their lap.
lnsru 15 minutes ago [-]
I am also trying to set granular milestones and get paid every 1000€. Not provide 20000€ work and then start looking for my money. I can live with a loss of 1000€, but missing 20000€ will impact negatively my mortgage and investment plan.
Watched a couple of times, but I don't fully understand the message in this video. Can someone ELI5?
xyzelement 25 minutes ago [-]
The fact that this is so many words makes me worry the author underappreciated the main lesson: risk exposure.
When you go out of pocket - you are out of pocket and the risk is all yours. If that one thing was different then all the remaining risk is on the client - they don't want to do version contr - ok cool you still get paid.
Usually when you have to pay in to get paid out (outside of a direct investment scenario) it's a scam. The people who fall for the Nigeria Prince thing are operating the same way.
condensedcrab 1 hours ago [-]
Contract terms can vary greatly depending on the situation and the company you’re working with.
Early/frequent payment terms are always good to have but you may not always have the leverage for it depending on where you’re at as a contractor.
Takes getting ripped off a times before insisting on better terms I guess. It’s like bombing your first job interview… you can prepare but it just needs to happen.
ChrisMarshallNY 22 minutes ago [-]
That doesn’t really sound like “being ripped off,” as opposed to “betting on a lame horse.”
The people behind this were irresponsible, childish, and exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They weren’t really hardline crooks. Crooks are probably a lot more organized.
I have gotten myself invested with similar crowds. There’s usually a charismatic spokesperson, leading the chaos.
They likely didn’t plan to rip him off, but paying him wasn’t really something they thought about. Real crooks put lots of planning into taking money.
> Multiple very junior developers were touching (binary, TouchDesigner) code and deploying straight to production via thumb drive, with zero version control. In fact, they didn’t know what version control was.
I suspect many startups fit that description. If they survive, then they usually pull themselves up by the bootstraps, eventually. Many of them collapse, taking everything with them.
throwaway98797 23 minutes ago [-]
> End clients can’t tell the difference between these bozos and me. I don’t know what to do with that information but it feels bad.
this is only getting worse with ai.
all the artifacts of good work are there but none of the depth.
jfrbfbreudh 25 minutes ago [-]
No longer a contractor but I used to offer a 10-15% discount for paying upfront. Almost every client took this deal. Earned a little less but never lost sleep over payments.
fred_is_fred 39 minutes ago [-]
He says "trust your gut" about 12 times, but the whole lead up has 0 mention that he was worried he would not get paid. His only gut feelings seemed to be around tech issues.
billnad 25 minutes ago [-]
Yes, I guess also trust the situation when it looks completely wrong. your gut is not lying when it sees that as well
hyperhello 1 hours ago [-]
> They were carpetbaggers and dilettantes convinced by their own inexperience and the advice of a onetime VJ that they could pull off something I’d twice helped quote to be brought home by a cadre of hardened killers with shitloads of math and know-how at eye-watering prices. They were way way way over their heads and were in no way interested in updating their priors in light of the shit they were swimming in.
And yet, somehow, you gave them the most important time you had for their promises.
buran77 39 minutes ago [-]
> I missed the month of May with my 2-year-old kid. My wife cared for a 2-year-old alone.
This wasn't because of the customer or not getting paid. This was the author's choice.
balbladsaf1231 38 minutes ago [-]
> A contract is toilet paper
no it isn't. why you did not sue them? success rate of international arbitrage (New York Convention) proces into China is 90% success rate. USA/EU companies who sue Chineses companies in China for breach of contract seem to be winning rates. Enforcement of USA curt orders do not need to go thorugh Chinese courts again, and are enforced by local authorities (local sharks) with success rate of 80% for foreign firms suing chinese firms. fees are also fairly low. case is straightfoward.
if author went and sue, likely he would get his money back.
LoganDark 28 minutes ago [-]
> why you did not sue them?
Because they could just dissolve the entity and get away with it. Did you even read the rest of the article?
carlosjobim 26 minutes ago [-]
There's no such thing as a company temporarily being in dire straits. These kind of companies are always in dire straits and crisis - it's a business tactic to not deliver and not pay. Just stay away, whether you're a customer, a contractor, an employee or if they want to be your customer.
fontain 57 minutes ago [-]
“A contract is toilet paper”
A little hyperbolic, but more accurate than not when laypeople think about contracts.
A contract isn’t a magic spell, it is a declaration of shared understanding that can be used for clarity and in legal proceedings.
If you think of a contract as a way to ensure you get what you agreed, yes, it is toilet paper, because a contract doesn’t remove counterparty risk.
blitzar 46 minutes ago [-]
In a fight between a piece of toilet paper backed by millions in legal spending vs a rock solid contract backed by nothing the toilet paper (even if it is used toilet paper) will win every single time.
hermannj314 29 minutes ago [-]
A piece of contract toilet paper is still better than a bare hand shake agreement.
burnt-resistor 21 minutes ago [-]
I was owed billable hours from Stanford University but refused to do any further work until the outstanding invoice was paid. Their accounts payable department didn't want to, so I had to tell the client "sorry" and walked away. It's really weird because I didn't have a problem in the near past then and was even an FTE at one point. I'm unwilling to work for free or for imaginary, low liquidation preference equity of a worthless startup.
Ordinarily, I would sign master agreements and set PO terms up-front. Typically, the better customers would agree to very strict requirements / objectives for a particular time period for a specific price. Any deviations would require negotiation. Hourly is fine too but there must be regular milestone deliveries so that there's demonstrable value for money being conveyed rather than an appearance of a milking-oriented consultant. Expectations must always be managed.
BowBun 1 hours ago [-]
All this for a $35K contract, that sucks.
dragonsenseiguy 1 hours ago [-]
Who are they?
1 hours ago [-]
for_i_in_range 1 hours ago [-]
Who are they?
sva_ 34 minutes ago [-]
I don't want to name what my quick Google search revealed, but if you search for augmented reality bus Beijing there aren't many options and it fits the authors characterization of their fleet consisting of ~20 buses.
dspillett 1 hours ago [-]
Which they? The contractor, the project owners, etc?
And is who they are relevant to the lesson (stealing time/effort is easy to get away with, you need to protect yourself from that)?
firtoz 32 minutes ago [-]
Article contains this:
> I’ll happily tell you who they are - get in touch
Rendered at 14:18:20 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late.
You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived.
BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger commercial relationship can be settled in. Do not be a baby - go research business contracts and payment terms.
Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.
Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely.
One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do the right thing or keep their word.
Develop a system where even bad clients, can't do too much damage i.e. upfront deposits, milestone-based payments. You have to control cash flow risks, if you are gonna take risks know what risks you're taking and when to get out.
Sadly, while this is true, there are plenty of folks still doing freelance who have not learned this, and there always will be. It's just one of those lessons that quite a lot of people have to learn from experience, even after reading posts like this.
My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing.
He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer.
The takeaway here is probably that the fix isn't just "never discount", but it's to screen for the kind of customer who treats a good deal as an invitation to strengthen the relationship.
- Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner
- Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.
- In the event of a late payment the invoice for the next deliverable shall immediately fall due.
- The consultant shall be entitled to shift deadlines on deliverables in the event of a late payment as a result of any work disruption, without incurring any liability.
- Payment shall be made in X currency, or an exchange rate at X date on Oanda.com shall apply.
- The client is responsible for any bank fees incurred by their, or any intermediary bank. In the event of a SWIFT transaction it shall be made with the OUR payment code.
- The jurisdiction in the event of a conflict shall be England and Wales. Neither party shall be bound by arbitration.
- The client and consultant shall both indemnify the other up to the total value of the contract and shall not under any circumstance be liable beyond X GBP.
We also no longer share downloadable links of our deliverables until they are paid up. They get a view/comment only link for reports/data etc.
We’ve found that clients that aren’t willing to accept these terms won’t pay you either way.
We determine the net days on the invoice based on the credit rating of the client. Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. About 1% of contracts tend to fully or partially default on their payments.
We’re in a particularly credit poor industry but our average delay due to late payment is 23 days. Those clients where we stop delivery pay on average 11 days sooner than those contracts where we don’t stop delivery.
This is based on around 2,000 invoices sent over the last 5 years.
It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent.
You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anyway.
Project goes well, he gets paid and they're best buds, and he doesn't even realize he was scammed (by intent). If not, well there's no point suing a failed company.
The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?
Or... maybe he needs income to exist.
Some favorites:
- No way they would actually screw me over! We're buds/they got me tiger balm/they paid some/I did them a solid
- Thin veneer of safe fallbacks that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Legal or other 'repercussions'
- Endless delays and excuses (though it's usually too late by this point)
It isn't, but you can't get blood from a stone and squeezing costs money.
It sounds like the entity that the contract is with has no real assets and/or is based in a jurisdiction which is hard to enforce judgements in. That's a case where you need to get paid up-front, which is the real lesson in this article.
Also, mandatory: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1
Choice quote from the linked talk (aptly titled "F*ck you, pay me").
> They were attempting to pull off AR effects on the transparent OLED windows of the bus without accounting for lens distortion, field of view, parallax, occlusion, etc., and were frustrated and mystified when things didn’t appear to line up. They were completely naive to what depth and scale cues are and how to deploy them.
If I don't get paid for one day of work, I will probably get over it in a few hours. If I don't get paid for six months of work, we will have a serious problem. The tighter and more incremental we can make the delivery process, the less likely anyone gets screwed.
If a party is pushing hard for long-term contracts or large up-front sums of payment, I would walk away from that transaction unless there was a literal golden goose sitting in their lap.
When you go out of pocket - you are out of pocket and the risk is all yours. If that one thing was different then all the remaining risk is on the client - they don't want to do version contr - ok cool you still get paid.
Usually when you have to pay in to get paid out (outside of a direct investment scenario) it's a scam. The people who fall for the Nigeria Prince thing are operating the same way.
Early/frequent payment terms are always good to have but you may not always have the leverage for it depending on where you’re at as a contractor.
Takes getting ripped off a times before insisting on better terms I guess. It’s like bombing your first job interview… you can prepare but it just needs to happen.
The people behind this were irresponsible, childish, and exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They weren’t really hardline crooks. Crooks are probably a lot more organized.
I have gotten myself invested with similar crowds. There’s usually a charismatic spokesperson, leading the chaos.
They likely didn’t plan to rip him off, but paying him wasn’t really something they thought about. Real crooks put lots of planning into taking money.
> Multiple very junior developers were touching (binary, TouchDesigner) code and deploying straight to production via thumb drive, with zero version control. In fact, they didn’t know what version control was.
I suspect many startups fit that description. If they survive, then they usually pull themselves up by the bootstraps, eventually. Many of them collapse, taking everything with them.
this is only getting worse with ai.
all the artifacts of good work are there but none of the depth.
And yet, somehow, you gave them the most important time you had for their promises.
This wasn't because of the customer or not getting paid. This was the author's choice.
no it isn't. why you did not sue them? success rate of international arbitrage (New York Convention) proces into China is 90% success rate. USA/EU companies who sue Chineses companies in China for breach of contract seem to be winning rates. Enforcement of USA curt orders do not need to go thorugh Chinese courts again, and are enforced by local authorities (local sharks) with success rate of 80% for foreign firms suing chinese firms. fees are also fairly low. case is straightfoward.
if author went and sue, likely he would get his money back.
Because they could just dissolve the entity and get away with it. Did you even read the rest of the article?
A little hyperbolic, but more accurate than not when laypeople think about contracts.
A contract isn’t a magic spell, it is a declaration of shared understanding that can be used for clarity and in legal proceedings.
If you think of a contract as a way to ensure you get what you agreed, yes, it is toilet paper, because a contract doesn’t remove counterparty risk.
Ordinarily, I would sign master agreements and set PO terms up-front. Typically, the better customers would agree to very strict requirements / objectives for a particular time period for a specific price. Any deviations would require negotiation. Hourly is fine too but there must be regular milestone deliveries so that there's demonstrable value for money being conveyed rather than an appearance of a milking-oriented consultant. Expectations must always be managed.
And is who they are relevant to the lesson (stealing time/effort is easy to get away with, you need to protect yourself from that)?
> I’ll happily tell you who they are - get in touch