I am completely baffled by this wave of new laws and proposals... they feel dystopic and can seemingly only lead to brutal restrictions on the internet. What will we end up with? Only attested modems / endpoints in the home? With DPI? And a government issued smartcard to use it? It comes across as if this is what some legislators are actually after... they must have some technical advisors who can explain to them that the solutions they propose will not work and I am a bit worried they will morph the public discussion into enforcing at a lower level otherwise "the bad guys still circumvent"??
2ndorderthought 1 hours ago [-]
Utah hosts I think the biggest nsa data center.
Honestly, I would like my ISP to block all traffic to and from Utah if this law passes. I can't think of anything I want or need that involves that state.
Bender 41 minutes ago [-]
Unfortunately it does not work that way unless perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment. The traffic monitored by the NSA will pass through their collection points in each state and will be silently mirrored to them regardless of the routing of your ISP. Even if your specific ISP does not mirror data the traffic will very likely pass through ISP's that do.
mvdwoord 58 minutes ago [-]
Without it being good or bad (long term, second order effects), I do think all of these (proposed) laws and where we are heading will balkanize the internet. Alternative tech may sound appealing to the tinkerers, and they may keep certain important channels alive (think radio amateurs... they know this game) but for the masses? I already happily block entire countries or regions to my VPS as there is zero benefit for me to not drop them at the FW level.
shaftoe 1 hours ago [-]
I'm confused where all of this censorship is originating from. What wave of efforts is culminating? I can't really explain this from any movement I can see.
There is no evidence it is actually coming from Meta. The Reddit researcher the article cites generated their entire "analysis" in three days using Claude: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47659552
Their website also added this page since I posted that comment: https://web.archive.org/web/20260411112604/https://tboteproj... where they claim their website is under "surveillance" because it got a few thousand requests from Google Cloud et al, most of them to a single page. This shows how low their standards are.
JumpCrisscross 17 minutes ago [-]
> There is no evidence it is actually coming from Meta
My personal view that social media should be age gated is caused by Meta. But broadly, polling shows a commanding majority (60+ percent) of Americans believe in restrictions for under 14s.
uncircle 1 hours ago [-]
I keep reading this but I don't understand how a company might want to push censorship on users. What is the economic benefit of censorship? Does Meta's bottom line increase if there is no illegal content and every user is age verified on the site? Would Meta care if you use a VPN?
The ones that stand to benefit the most are the governments themselves and their surveillance network.
soared 53 minutes ago [-]
Barriers to entry. If I want to make a small forum, these laws make that potentially much more difficult. Now users who may have used my forum may spend more time on facebook instead.
Multiply that times tens of thousands of new sites not being created, tens of thousands of existing sites no longer existing or being accessible due to new laws, this occurring over multiple surfaces (content moderation, age verification, etc) and the positive impact for meta is meaningful.
If there are less sites, meta wins.
washadjeffmad 54 minutes ago [-]
Not that many years ago, Facebook tried to broker a deal to provide free internet to India if all of their web traffic and communications would happen within the Facebook ecosystem.
It's long been the dream of more than a few American companies to be the gatekeepers of the web.
cj 49 minutes ago [-]
IIRC the model was closer to a freemium model where you would get free internet to approved websites (including Facebook) with the ability to access the entire internet for an extra fee.
Facebook and approved sites wouldn’t count towards your mobile bandwidth quota, but the rest of the internet does and requires a data plan.
Which raised net neutrality concerns.
yojo 27 minutes ago [-]
Meta’s bottom line is driven entirely by their ability to uniquely and persistently identify users for the sake of advertising.
Anything that makes it harder for a user to escape their dragnet is a win.
tylerchilds 56 minutes ago [-]
Rug pull
Ladder pull
It’s just that
“Move fast, break things, regulate impossible to repair.”
luisfmh 56 minutes ago [-]
I've read a take somewhere that seemed to make sense. They don't want to get stuck with the liabilities of the content that gets posted on their platforms. So by forcing the age verification onto the users, forcing users to identify and track themselves, they can have a "clean" route to someone who posts illicit content on their platforms.
It just sucks that that's all in sacrifice of our privacy.
teratron27 52 minutes ago [-]
The idea from the case in the link is that their competitors would be more regulated then them but in general, if regulation is a requirement and they’ve already implemented the regulation then it’s hard for a competitor to emerge.
xkcd1963 44 minutes ago [-]
They realized all the data on user behaviour is useless after trying to leverage on it with LLMs and now they go after seemingly new riches
bilbo0s 39 minutes ago [-]
I keep reading this but I don't understand how a company might want to push censorship on users.
We're being astroturf-ed guy.
The comment you're responding to. The comments responding to you. All shaped by influence campaigns from the beginning.
Meta, X, google, data based big tech, the billionaires, and the government were in on the plan from the start. We were always the ones kept in the dark as to the ultimate intent. Even the anti-censorship and anti-surveillance posts and content that we saw, were being paid for by the same puppet masters. Professional influence campaigns controlled by these same groups shaped the internet discussion of both sides.
And it seems a lot of us still haven't figured that out yet.
We got played. We'll continue to be played if we don't recognize that fact and act to prevent it in the future.
Because I can assure you, censorship and surveillance is not the endgame. And their endgame is very likely not to our benefit.
kelseyfrog 31 minutes ago [-]
Can you describe in detail the end game and how you came to know it?
mannanj 1 hours ago [-]
And Meta is captured by spy agencies. Don't be tricked at any point into thinking this is just a tech thing. And, spy agencies, who captured them?
2ndorderthought 59 minutes ago [-]
I wouldn't say captured. Zuckerberg has been cutting deals with the new administration so often people were seeing him at the Pentagon. It's a partnership
mannanj 43 minutes ago [-]
It goes way before that, it isn't recent.
iamnothere 24 minutes ago [-]
In-Q-Tel
2ndorderthought 1 hours ago [-]
It looks like a coordinated effort from multiple defense companies like meta, and I believe openai, and I think palantir.
tailscaler2026 55 minutes ago [-]
Yep. I brought this up yesterday on the Roblox thread but HN has been ingesting the propaganda for too long to understand their beliefs about Roblox are misled.
Time to adjust your priors y'all. This is a concentrated effort toward surveillance, controlling who we talk to, and what information we're fed.
mvdwoord 1 hours ago [-]
Maybe the desire is always there, but somehow the momentum is just in an upswing now?
2ndorderthought 58 minutes ago [-]
They finally have the tools to mass read everything aka LLMs. Does that make sense?
Guestmodinfo 58 minutes ago [-]
My guess is bots. Govts and law makers are afraid of the barrage of bots DDOSing them so they are slowly and surely tightening the noose around the internet. I'm all for net neutrality and anonymity on the internet and I don't like the age laws one bit, but I too am afraid of the bots scorching the internet. I still hate these growing dystopian laws but I also want the bots to be driven away from the "human internet" .
verdverm 51 minutes ago [-]
Heritage Foundation, Meta, and generally the Oligarchy
bilbo0s 47 minutes ago [-]
It's the inevitable culmination of their plan.
Pretend to be anti-censorship. Get voted in. Fast track all of the censorship and surveillance through congress.
When I saw certain billionaires talking up anti-censorship and anti-surveillance a few years ago, I knew we would be screwed. (I knew the same billionaires had large positions in censorship and surveillance tech.) No one ever talks against their own book unless they're planning on screwing you.
deknos 1 hours ago [-]
> What will we end up with? Only attested modems / endpoints in the home?
you might laugh/cry, but there was a time in germany, when the telephone at home was owned by the state (the "Post") and you were NOT allowed to tinker with it.
personally, i guess, things like sneakernet, lorawan and hamradio will become a lot more popular over time.
redman25 56 seconds ago [-]
Doesn’t ham radio not allow transmissions to be encrypted by law? That rules out most of the internet.
mr-wendel 28 minutes ago [-]
My pet theory is that network protocols will evolve to require some kind of certificate-based signing to uniquely identify individuals and groups. Hardware and operating systems will have legal mandates to enforce this. Penalties for carrying unsigned traffic will be stiff.
The “upsides” will be plentiful! User verification schemes will be streamlined like never before. If you think there are downsides… well, just think of the kids, damn it!
butvacuum 1 hours ago [-]
Same for the US- until the feds broke up Bell between 1974 and 82. but, there were no technical hurdles. Anybody have a toy whistle?
rationalist 59 minutes ago [-]
My understanding is that the phone company owned the phone, not the state.
estebank 54 minutes ago [-]
In many countries the state owned the phone company.
mvdwoord 56 minutes ago [-]
If there is only 1 telephone company, either owned by the state, directly or indirectly, or even just a monopoly... what is the difference?
Same in NL... we used to rent our telephones from the "PTT".
Spooky23 23 minutes ago [-]
The people making these decisions are religious fanatics. They don’t care.
This is one of the reasons why the purge of the federal government and military has happened. Surveillance state stuff was pretty scary from day 1… doubly so now that the leadership is all toadies who will remain embedded for decades.
JumpCrisscross 18 minutes ago [-]
> they must have some technical advisors
I dare you to get half a dozen people with a technical background to call their electeds and explain why these rules are stupid. (And, if they insist on implementing age gates, as seems to be popular, the least worst ways to do it.)
dgellow 1 hours ago [-]
> they must have some technical advisors who can explain to them that the solutions they propose will not work
I would expect they mostly listen to special interests advocating for those laws. They don’t come from nowhere
pyaamb 40 minutes ago [-]
when can we hold lawmakers personally responsible for any consequences resulting from passing bad laws?
bluecheese452 23 minutes ago [-]
You can.
toss1 34 minutes ago [-]
>>they must have some technical advisors who can explain to them that the solutions they propose will not work
You are assuming good faith on the part of those legislators.
That is an error.
There is no good faith to be had and they could not care less about physical restrictions, incompatibilities, or impossibilities.
Their goal is to maximize their power and minimize or eliminate people's power, regardless of whether it is legitimate or desired by the people they claim to represent.
You would be more productive summoning the ghost of Richard Feynman to explain quantum physics to a dung beetle than to have a network expert attempt to enlighten those pseudo-legislators.
morkalork 34 minutes ago [-]
We will end up with what China, Russia and Iran have. The American right has come to grips with the fact that their ideas and beliefs will not will not win on merit alone so they're moving to restrict and eliminate alternatives.
gnerd00 27 minutes ago [-]
LOL - its just "the right" eh?
xbar 13 minutes ago [-]
Who is supporting this law?
gilrain 42 minutes ago [-]
The country is descending into fascism. If you’ve previous endulged in the politics of “I don’t care about politics”, it’s time to stop and look around you.
mannanj 1 hours ago [-]
Remember the conspiracy theorists talking about this for decades? I do. This is the goal of a bourgeois class of people who want to save their livelihoods and status in the world though don't want any circumstances they can't control - legislators are out of touch with the majority of people as they are funded by any really serve those bourgeois.
onetokeoverthe 47 minutes ago [-]
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throw848tjfj 1 hours ago [-]
We will end with correct and desired behaviour. If you misbehave, you get internet ban, and lose your livelihood. Driving licences, passports, electricity, banking... etc already work this way.
Technical details are irrelevant.
You should not be able to criticise current or previous government!
peddling-brink 40 minutes ago [-]
What previous government? We have always been at war with Eurasia.
throw848tjfj 27 minutes ago [-]
Who today even declares wars? We can be best allies, while you blow up our pipelines!
> if a website cannot reliably detect a VPN user's true location and the law requires it to do so for all users in a particular state, then the legal risk could push the site to either ban all known VPN IPs, or to mandate age verification for every visitor globally.
Clearly anyone slightly sophisticated can bypass restrictions like this. A quick search reveals https://github.com/shadowsocks. This only harms regular users who might benefit from privacy. The dystopia levels continue to rise...
Nifty3929 1 hours ago [-]
VPNs are on their way toward being banned and/or heavily regulated. I imagine what will happen is a requirement for VPN providers to "know your customer" just as banks do, and for them to be able to tie a particular traffic stream back to a specific human.
Host them in your homelab and the ISP finds out? You get your Internet cut.
How will either of them find out? IP addresses and/or DPI.
All it'll take is an executive order or an act of Congress.
bloppe 3 minutes ago [-]
Truly enforcing this kind of ban would require a level of control over the internet much greater than China's. They actually do ban VPN use, yet plenty of Chinese people still use them, and not due to lack of trying on the part of the enforcers. You can basically never plug all the holes without essentially shutting off the whole internet.
lokar 44 minutes ago [-]
The question is not how will they ban it, they just pass a law.
The question is how and when will they enforce it. When they get access to your devices for some other reason, they will see it. It will give them another easy to prosecute law to use against you.
thfuran 51 minutes ago [-]
Ban them, demand GitHub et al take down the illegal repos, hit up Microsoft for records of everyone who ever downloaded them, hosting providers for customer records, and ISPs for lists of customers with VPN-shaped traffic between themselves and their hosting provider. Or if they’re lazy, just demand that the hosting providers sort it out.
bethekidyouwant 26 minutes ago [-]
What are you talking about what? What illegal repo? SSH? Socks? That doesn’t make any sense dude
kiba 53 minutes ago [-]
Seems like they will do that too.
wilkystyle 60 minutes ago [-]
"Utah to hold Cloud providers liable for failing to police self-hosted VPNs on their infrastructure"
nunez 28 minutes ago [-]
So they're asking ISPs to build the Great Mormon Firewall, basically. Cool, cool cool, cool, cool.
I'm more scared that there is a push to do this federally, as that will, effectively, be tantamount to establishing explicitly state-controlled media.
pbasista 48 minutes ago [-]
What is the motivation for such a measure? In other words, which problem is it trying to solve? And how it is supposed to do so?
I think that we should not carelessly invent laws that just "sound good" to some lawmakers but have no real fact checking done to support them and are not backed by science.
Because, in my opinion, then there is a high risk that these "good intentions" will backfire spectacularly. While not getting even close to achieve the desired effect.
bilsbie 7 minutes ago [-]
I really miss the 90s. Can someone make a new internet that’s like that?
tekawade 30 minutes ago [-]
I understand the need for age verification. And better way to do this is have all device way to communicate the age set by parents to websites.
This is just one of the way. “The Anxious Generation”- Jonathan Haidt put it across. Rey well. It’s import at this day and age to check age online.
Banning VPN is not the way.
Even ChargePoint app does not work with vpn on I am baffled.
1 hours ago [-]
kstrauser 1 hours ago [-]
This is the stupidest idea I’ve heard recently. Way to go, Utah.
My home router has a built in VPN server. When I’m out running around, my iPhone can route traffic through my house. Pray tell, o sage Utah legislature chucklefucks, how is anyone expected to tell that I’m accessing a website from a hotel in Berlin instead of my house in California? (Which is why we used it last time: I configured my travel router to use that same VPN so we could watch American Netflix at night before bedtime when we just wanted something familiar to relax with.)
Honestly, this is the new “pi equals 3” legislation. “Let’s make laws codifying technical ideas we clearly have no freaking clue about”.
Again, way to go, Utah.
jeroenhd 1 hours ago [-]
> how is anyone expected to tell that I’m accessing a website from a hotel in Berlin instead of my house in California
Remote attestation in combination with location access as a start. DPI on TCP/UDP timinings/round trip time measurements for distant locations, combined DNS leak detection to catch bad VPNs. Use browser APIs to detect WiFi vs mobile data to let some 2G users through. IPv6 accessibility checks to catch many other VPNs.
There are always technical means, as the more restrictive streaming services like to prove. There are many, many more ways websites can verify that users are not on a VPN that most websites don't bother with, and until they all do and people still use VPNs, legislators will find ways to punish websites.
The real end goal isn't to block content these people dislike within their state, of course. The goal is to go after the existence of adult websites and, in worryingly more common cases, websites discussing basic LGBTQ topics.
kstrauser 45 minutes ago [-]
No. That’s how someone with pervasive access to Internet infrastructure could tell when I’m on a VPN. It’s impossible for a given website to tell that I’m accessing it over a VPN. Not difficult: impossible. It cannot be done.
lstodd 38 minutes ago [-]
Technical measures while technically existing failed first in China and then in Russia lately, Russian authorities recently all but admitted that they can not block xray+reality-style VPNs (which were and are developed in China to go over their "great firewall") and now talk about a blanket ban on foreign traffic and basically a whitelist for internet.
The goal is always a perception of control of public narrative. Those people deeply care what "masses" think of them. That they measure mostly by sampling more or less public media (and I actually worked at a company in 2010s which was selling exactly that). And when they don't like what they see, they try to fix that by controlling that media, up to and including banning the whole world.
That is what is happening with all this protecting the children stuff.
iLoveOncall 1 hours ago [-]
Here's the website of Utah's governor if you want to access it via a VPN: https://www.votecox.com/
No GDPR banner, even if visiting the website from EU
bradley13 35 minutes ago [-]
This is happening simultaneously in many Western countries. It is clearly somehow coordinated. You don't need a tinfoil hat to see the conspiracy.
Equally clearly, this is a first step to requiring identity, and ultimately government approval for your activities in the internet.
Somehow, we really must reign in the political class, before we truly land in a dystopia.
hackernews682 9 minutes ago [-]
This. And the coordinated rollout of digital currencies.
It is all a part of the control grid being prepared for us.
One would think this would be obvious to more HN readers, being the supposed technical “systems thinkers” they purport to be.
JumpCrisscross 15 minutes ago [-]
> It is clearly somehow coordinated
Well, yes—parents’ groups are coordinating. Similar to how drunk driving and cigarette rules were passed globally in about a generation. You don’t need reptiles when polling is so strongly against kids on social media.
markus_zhang 27 minutes ago [-]
I guess this is just to accelerate the preparation for a total war.
FrustratedMonky 39 minutes ago [-]
Doesn't this seem impossible?
So if I have jo-blow web site.
And a user uses a VPN, how am I supposed to do anything about it. And why should i?
tedd4u 7 minutes ago [-]
Don't host your website in Utah and avoid having a business / tax nexus there.
1 hours ago [-]
nephihaha 1 hours ago [-]
What a coincidence that Utah is following the same pattern as Australia, the European Union, Norway and the UK, while pretending they came up with it independently.
bryan_w 1 hours ago [-]
I wonder who's in common there?
nephihaha 1 hours ago [-]
They obviously get the ideas from the same sources. Somewhere they don't invite ordinary people to like Davos or other conferences.
wat10000 1 hours ago [-]
Could just be monkey see monkey do.
croes 51 minutes ago [-]
You don’t need a formal conspiracy when interests converge.
gib444 1 hours ago [-]
Utah is actually trailblazing ahead of the UK here. It was only ministers possibly suggesting VPNs would be next in the firing line and AFAIK nothing has progressed beyond that yet
Yet articles about UK age verification stuff got HUGE amount of attention and backlash here...
functionmouse 1 hours ago [-]
only the beginning
59 minutes ago [-]
righthand 1 hours ago [-]
> It also prohibits covered websites from sharing instructions on how to use a VPN to bypass age checks.
This country is led by idiots that do not enjoy or like freedom.
jitler 50 minutes ago [-]
> This country is led idiots that do not enjoy or like freedom.
This country is populated by idiots that do not enjoy or like freedom. These people didn’t just seize power in a coup.
ndsipa_pomu 25 minutes ago [-]
Maybe a failed coup that ended up not being punished.
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
Correction — rules for thee, freedom for me.
The people who lead our country love their own freedoms, as long as it allows them to infringe on everyone else's freedoms.
eu 1 hours ago [-]
is this even doable/enforceble?
dgrin91 1 hours ago [-]
Sure, it would force sites to block traffic from vpns.
The fun part is when you post videos of yourself using a vpn to go to gov website or the candidate website and watch them do nothing
sammy2255 1 hours ago [-]
That's called complying, not enforcing
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1 hours ago [-]
Well, how is a law against murder enforced when someone doesn't comply with it?
functionmouse 1 hours ago [-]
no, they're inventing make-believe crimes they can accuse anyone they don't like of
kstrauser 1 hours ago [-]
Not even remotely.
luma 58 minutes ago [-]
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antibull 1 hours ago [-]
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juliusceasar 60 minutes ago [-]
[flagged]
OutOfHere 1 hours ago [-]
People need to do their best to stop paying so much in taxes to their state governments, failing which the governments get increasingly authoritarian. The state governments clearly have run out of real problems to solve, and when they do, they then attack basic freedoms. Keeping them strongly tax-constrained keeps them lean. As it stands, these governments are representing special interests, not the people. It doesn't matter how many places or where this is happening; the logic is the same. What happens is that the tax money is a prerequisite for strong enforcement. Without an excess in tax money, there isn't going to be substantial enforcement. I am not asking anyone to break tax law; only to aggressively hunt for exceptions to your advantage.
Outside of a W-2 salary for which taxes are pre-deducted, there are many ways, more applicable to businesses, also to independent contractors. Even for those with a salary, they ought to do their best to collect all the legally qualified benefits that they can. Lots of independent contractors get paid as W-2 when they could be getting paid as a corp, for which they could write off a portion of the taxes via deductibles and in various other ways. Lots of people could be ordering online at websites that don't deduct a sales tax. Using a Delaware corp for various transactions can also go a long way. Living in a geography where the property taxes are not absurdly high or rising also matters.
dntrkv 37 minutes ago [-]
Yes because the countries with lower taxes are so free and democratic. Pretty sure the relationship is inverse if you take even 5 min of your time to look.
j0yb0y 1 hours ago [-]
Representing special interests != too much tax money. Orthogonal. It’s a mind boggling leap.
OutOfHere 1 hours ago [-]
The tax money is a prerequisite for strong enforcement. Without an excess in tax money, there isn't going to be substantial enforcement. Think ahead.
ambicapter 50 minutes ago [-]
Here's another prerequisite, even farther back than "strong enforcement"--not voting in governments with authoritarian tendencies.
iamnothere 19 minutes ago [-]
Unfortunately it’s been impossible to avoid Red or Blue flavored authoritarianism for the last few decades due to authoritarian control over both the political process and the entrenched bureaucracy.
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
You're saying that like we have a choice. If we don't pay taxes we get jailed. Simple as that.
dandellion 1 hours ago [-]
Only if you're poor, the rich don't pay taxes just fine.
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
Incidentally these rules probably don't apply or won't be enforced on the rich because of some loophole.
kordlessagain 1 hours ago [-]
Stop paying so much is not the same as not paying. Why are you making it otherwise?
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
Oh OK, thanks for clarifying that I can pay less than I owe and be scot free.
iamnothere 15 minutes ago [-]
Make less, pay less.
If you’ve had a successful career already, you may be able to “drop out” and find a place to live cheaply. I’ve heard good things about Panama.
functionmouse 1 hours ago [-]
so it's okay because we're just following orders?
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
Sure if you wanna put it that way. I don't like paying taxes because our government doesn't use it well. But I also know that if I don't pay taxes I'm gonna have a bad time.
OutOfHere 1 hours ago [-]
Outside of a W-2 salary, there are ways, more applicable to businesses, also to independent contractors. Even for those with a salary, they ought to do their best to collect all the legally qualified benefits that they can.
Lots of independent contractors get paid as W-2 when they could be getting paid as a corp, for which they could write off a portion of the taxes via deductibles and in various other ways.
Lots of people could be ordering online at websites that don't deduct a sales tax. Instead, they pay a substantial amount in sales tax.
Using a Delaware corp for various transactions can also go a long way.
abustamam 1 hours ago [-]
I don't think anyone voluntarily pays more taxes than they ought to. People DO collect all their legally qualified benefits. It's why software like turbo tax is still around despite being a shitty company.
nephihaha 1 hours ago [-]
This is happening worldwide.
wat10000 1 hours ago [-]
How exactly am I supposed to do that?
1 hours ago [-]
Rendered at 16:07:07 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Honestly, I would like my ISP to block all traffic to and from Utah if this law passes. I can't think of anything I want or need that involves that state.
Big tech wants regulatory capture.
Their website also added this page since I posted that comment: https://web.archive.org/web/20260411112604/https://tboteproj... where they claim their website is under "surveillance" because it got a few thousand requests from Google Cloud et al, most of them to a single page. This shows how low their standards are.
My personal view that social media should be age gated is caused by Meta. But broadly, polling shows a commanding majority (60+ percent) of Americans believe in restrictions for under 14s.
The ones that stand to benefit the most are the governments themselves and their surveillance network.
Multiply that times tens of thousands of new sites not being created, tens of thousands of existing sites no longer existing or being accessible due to new laws, this occurring over multiple surfaces (content moderation, age verification, etc) and the positive impact for meta is meaningful.
If there are less sites, meta wins.
It's long been the dream of more than a few American companies to be the gatekeepers of the web.
Facebook and approved sites wouldn’t count towards your mobile bandwidth quota, but the rest of the internet does and requires a data plan.
Which raised net neutrality concerns.
Anything that makes it harder for a user to escape their dragnet is a win.
It’s just that
“Move fast, break things, regulate impossible to repair.”
It just sucks that that's all in sacrifice of our privacy.
We're being astroturf-ed guy.
The comment you're responding to. The comments responding to you. All shaped by influence campaigns from the beginning.
Meta, X, google, data based big tech, the billionaires, and the government were in on the plan from the start. We were always the ones kept in the dark as to the ultimate intent. Even the anti-censorship and anti-surveillance posts and content that we saw, were being paid for by the same puppet masters. Professional influence campaigns controlled by these same groups shaped the internet discussion of both sides.
And it seems a lot of us still haven't figured that out yet.
We got played. We'll continue to be played if we don't recognize that fact and act to prevent it in the future.
Because I can assure you, censorship and surveillance is not the endgame. And their endgame is very likely not to our benefit.
Time to adjust your priors y'all. This is a concentrated effort toward surveillance, controlling who we talk to, and what information we're fed.
Pretend to be anti-censorship. Get voted in. Fast track all of the censorship and surveillance through congress.
When I saw certain billionaires talking up anti-censorship and anti-surveillance a few years ago, I knew we would be screwed. (I knew the same billionaires had large positions in censorship and surveillance tech.) No one ever talks against their own book unless they're planning on screwing you.
you might laugh/cry, but there was a time in germany, when the telephone at home was owned by the state (the "Post") and you were NOT allowed to tinker with it.
personally, i guess, things like sneakernet, lorawan and hamradio will become a lot more popular over time.
The “upsides” will be plentiful! User verification schemes will be streamlined like never before. If you think there are downsides… well, just think of the kids, damn it!
This is one of the reasons why the purge of the federal government and military has happened. Surveillance state stuff was pretty scary from day 1… doubly so now that the leadership is all toadies who will remain embedded for decades.
I dare you to get half a dozen people with a technical background to call their electeds and explain why these rules are stupid. (And, if they insist on implementing age gates, as seems to be popular, the least worst ways to do it.)
I would expect they mostly listen to special interests advocating for those laws. They don’t come from nowhere
You are assuming good faith on the part of those legislators.
That is an error.
There is no good faith to be had and they could not care less about physical restrictions, incompatibilities, or impossibilities.
Their goal is to maximize their power and minimize or eliminate people's power, regardless of whether it is legitimate or desired by the people they claim to represent.
You would be more productive summoning the ghost of Richard Feynman to explain quantum physics to a dung beetle than to have a network expert attempt to enlighten those pseudo-legislators.
Technical details are irrelevant.
You should not be able to criticise current or previous government!
The bottom line:
> if a website cannot reliably detect a VPN user's true location and the law requires it to do so for all users in a particular state, then the legal risk could push the site to either ban all known VPN IPs, or to mandate age verification for every visitor globally.
Clearly anyone slightly sophisticated can bypass restrictions like this. A quick search reveals https://github.com/shadowsocks. This only harms regular users who might benefit from privacy. The dystopia levels continue to rise...
Host them on the cloud providers? You get banned.
Host them in your homelab and the ISP finds out? You get your Internet cut.
How will either of them find out? IP addresses and/or DPI.
All it'll take is an executive order or an act of Congress.
The question is how and when will they enforce it. When they get access to your devices for some other reason, they will see it. It will give them another easy to prosecute law to use against you.
I'm more scared that there is a push to do this federally, as that will, effectively, be tantamount to establishing explicitly state-controlled media.
I think that we should not carelessly invent laws that just "sound good" to some lawmakers but have no real fact checking done to support them and are not backed by science.
Because, in my opinion, then there is a high risk that these "good intentions" will backfire spectacularly. While not getting even close to achieve the desired effect.
This is just one of the way. “The Anxious Generation”- Jonathan Haidt put it across. Rey well. It’s import at this day and age to check age online.
Banning VPN is not the way.
Even ChargePoint app does not work with vpn on I am baffled.
My home router has a built in VPN server. When I’m out running around, my iPhone can route traffic through my house. Pray tell, o sage Utah legislature chucklefucks, how is anyone expected to tell that I’m accessing a website from a hotel in Berlin instead of my house in California? (Which is why we used it last time: I configured my travel router to use that same VPN so we could watch American Netflix at night before bedtime when we just wanted something familiar to relax with.)
Honestly, this is the new “pi equals 3” legislation. “Let’s make laws codifying technical ideas we clearly have no freaking clue about”.
Again, way to go, Utah.
Remote attestation in combination with location access as a start. DPI on TCP/UDP timinings/round trip time measurements for distant locations, combined DNS leak detection to catch bad VPNs. Use browser APIs to detect WiFi vs mobile data to let some 2G users through. IPv6 accessibility checks to catch many other VPNs.
There are always technical means, as the more restrictive streaming services like to prove. There are many, many more ways websites can verify that users are not on a VPN that most websites don't bother with, and until they all do and people still use VPNs, legislators will find ways to punish websites.
The real end goal isn't to block content these people dislike within their state, of course. The goal is to go after the existence of adult websites and, in worryingly more common cases, websites discussing basic LGBTQ topics.
The goal is always a perception of control of public narrative. Those people deeply care what "masses" think of them. That they measure mostly by sampling more or less public media (and I actually worked at a company in 2010s which was selling exactly that). And when they don't like what they see, they try to fix that by controlling that media, up to and including banning the whole world.
That is what is happening with all this protecting the children stuff.
> Fighting Federal Overreach
"The US govt can't overreach! That's my job!"
Equally clearly, this is a first step to requiring identity, and ultimately government approval for your activities in the internet.
Somehow, we really must reign in the political class, before we truly land in a dystopia.
One would think this would be obvious to more HN readers, being the supposed technical “systems thinkers” they purport to be.
Well, yes—parents’ groups are coordinating. Similar to how drunk driving and cigarette rules were passed globally in about a generation. You don’t need reptiles when polling is so strongly against kids on social media.
So if I have jo-blow web site.
And a user uses a VPN, how am I supposed to do anything about it. And why should i?
Yet articles about UK age verification stuff got HUGE amount of attention and backlash here...
This country is led by idiots that do not enjoy or like freedom.
This country is populated by idiots that do not enjoy or like freedom. These people didn’t just seize power in a coup.
The people who lead our country love their own freedoms, as long as it allows them to infringe on everyone else's freedoms.
The fun part is when you post videos of yourself using a vpn to go to gov website or the candidate website and watch them do nothing
Outside of a W-2 salary for which taxes are pre-deducted, there are many ways, more applicable to businesses, also to independent contractors. Even for those with a salary, they ought to do their best to collect all the legally qualified benefits that they can. Lots of independent contractors get paid as W-2 when they could be getting paid as a corp, for which they could write off a portion of the taxes via deductibles and in various other ways. Lots of people could be ordering online at websites that don't deduct a sales tax. Using a Delaware corp for various transactions can also go a long way. Living in a geography where the property taxes are not absurdly high or rising also matters.
If you’ve had a successful career already, you may be able to “drop out” and find a place to live cheaply. I’ve heard good things about Panama.
Lots of independent contractors get paid as W-2 when they could be getting paid as a corp, for which they could write off a portion of the taxes via deductibles and in various other ways.
Lots of people could be ordering online at websites that don't deduct a sales tax. Instead, they pay a substantial amount in sales tax.
Using a Delaware corp for various transactions can also go a long way.