What I most want to see it compared to is Gemma 4 12B in the 4-bit QAT version. It's barely bigger than this at just under 7GB, so it also runs on just about any modern device and is remarkably smart for its size. It's an excellent tool user, crazy good vision for its size. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how much is lost with each step down in resolution, but the QAT versions from Google seem to prove the answer is "very little" at four bits.
motbus3 24 minutes ago [-]
I need help understanding this.
I understood that the magic here is the quantization that allows it to use from 50G to 4G and their process retain most of the intelligence within Pareto limits of gain. And then they proceed to compare with other quantized models as in the level of intelligence per size. It gets to my attention though that the performance in tool calling is mostly affected which is a problem for other small models.
How does this model compare to a recent 4G model? How do we know it retained intelligence from the parent rather then being fine tuned for the benchmarks?
I am not shtng on them or anything. I'd rather find it amazing, BUT given my limited knowledge, I feel the results miss fair comparison plots and the ones might be misleading. Buy I also reckon it might be me the problem.
Anyone care to explain this poor silly fellow some of those points?
Notably, PrismML CEO Babak Hassibi told CNBC this, so it’s either (1) bullshit, or (2) he just ended any chance of a relationship by leaking news of the talks.
Arcuru 26 minutes ago [-]
Awesome! I've been waiting for them to start scaling ternary models for over a year[1]. Excited to try it out, typical Qwen 27B is too heavy for me to run on my local hardware at reasonable speeds.
I've tried a couple in LM Studio - the GGUF one and the MLX one - but neither worked there. Anyone else get them to work? Might be that LM Studio needs to upgrade their llama.cpp or MLX engines first.
bansaltushar 1 hours ago [-]
Depending on which model you're running, you might need to use the custom forks.
I did not know you guys would be watching. For sure. Let me do that tomorrow when I turn it on again :)
I am happy to see the message. Thanks!
trollbridge 1 hours ago [-]
Didn't work for me in Unsloth, but it will probably be fixed in a day or two when the next batch of updates comes out.
comandillos 26 minutes ago [-]
Quite weird that heavy quantization method on a dense model gives better results than slightly quantized MoE models like 35B-A3B from Google.
At this point all the different quantization and 'compression' (look at MPO applied to LLMs...) techniques start feeling a bit like snake oil. It's just gut feeling - or scores on benchmarks models are optimized for - what ends up deciding whether a technique is good enough or not.
erwan577 1 hours ago [-]
The KV-cache memory usage also seems remarkably frugal, even at the full context length. That could make this model particularly useful in multi-agent coding workflows.
I wish KV-cache memory usage and related optimizations were discussed more clearly in new model announcements and demos.
verdverm 46 minutes ago [-]
quanting kv cache hurts attention / recall, and long-form tasks by proxy. Model families and sizes have different tolerances to quant ting different parts of the model, same for intended tasks.
kamranjon 17 minutes ago [-]
After using a highly capable 2-bit quant as my daily driver for months now, I get pretty excited about releases like this. After a few days for the kinks to be worked out, I’ll be excited to try it.
digdugdirk 5 minutes ago [-]
What model? And what hardware do you run it on?
I find these style of models are great, but fail hard, and fail randomly. I'd be hesitant to use it for a daily driver, but I'm using dual 3060s, so it's not like I'm quantizing a frontier model here.
How do you find the overall experience? And do you have any special sauce or recommendations for going this route?
sigbottle 2 hours ago [-]
What's the hiring space and business strategy around all of these smaller AI labs? Its really cool that people like these guys get paid to optimize models and give them out for free (open source). Do a lot of these labs have forward deployed engineers doing integrations with customers who want local models? Is there a general shift towards the local model crowd?
trollbridge 1 hours ago [-]
If you read to the bottom of the page, it says they're funded by a few people, and one of them is Samsung. I'm betting Samsung wants to be able to ship a capable AI system on a future model of their phone so they can compete with Apple.
doctoboggan 42 minutes ago [-]
Agreed, and the prevailing wisdom now seems to be that unless you can release a truly frontier model, you might as well release yours as open source to undercut your competition.
verdverm 4 minutes ago [-]
Preliminary analysis via lm-evaluation-harness + vllm
Looks like they quant'd too hard at 4 bits, can't imagine the ternary being any good based on this.
Code if you'd like to reproduce or try other test sets: https://github.com/verdverm/quantr (lightly tuned to a single oem spark, probably possible in 32-48G)
Good paper to understand the effects of quant regimes across model families and tasks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.18158 (Evaluating Quantized Large Language Models - 2024 ICML)
alvatech 3 hours ago [-]
TIL that 1 bit models are actually 1.58 bit with three values +1, 0 and -1
NitpickLawyer 2 hours ago [-]
There's two variants of this (or, as the joke goes, for very big values of bit):
Ternary Bonsai 27B uses ternary {−1, 0, +1} weights with FP16 group-wise scaling, giving a true 1.71 effective bits per weight.
1-bit Bonsai 27B uses binary {−1, +1} weights with the same group-wise scaling, giving 1.125 effective bits per weight.
PcChip 1 hours ago [-]
this is a really dumb question, but how is -1 represented?
is it a float? if so, how many bits is the float?
I've never heard of a bit ever having more than two possible values
lioeters 37 seconds ago [-]
> never heard of a bit ever having more than two possible values
It's not represented by a "bit", binary digit with value of 0 or 1; but with a "trit", ternary digit with value of {−1, 0, +1}.
edflsafoiewq 16 minutes ago [-]
It appears they are using Q2_0 in llama.cpp, which is 2 bits per weight + 1 float16 scale per group of 64 weights. This is inefficient in two ways: one bit pattern is wasted on each weight, since ternary weights only use {-1,0,1} and Q2_0 allows {-1,0,1,2}; and their group size is 128 weights, so the scale will be stored twice in two groups of 64 instead of stored only once in one group of 128.
Their fork corrects the second inefficiency by using a group size of 128, but still uses 2-bit weights AFAICT.
It's possible to pack 5 trits into a byte, but the unpacking is not very efficient. Another recent idea is to add the constraint that exactly one weight in each group of four be zero, which gives exactly 32 possible states, so it fits in 5 bits.
It’s still a bit with only two possible values. But they add a scaling factor to a group of them (128 for example) which when you factor in, results in a fractional number of bits per parameter.
throwawayffffas 19 minutes ago [-]
I believe the scaling comes in later, to turn the 1 and -1 into large numbers that may or may not activate the next layer.
The way they do it is packing like the other comment says.
Each byte represents 5 trinary values instead of 8 binary, and there is a little bit of waste.
bensyverson 2 hours ago [-]
Yeah, it's an unfortunate convention from the very first "1 bit" model. But to be clear, Bonsai comes in both ternary and actual 1-bit variants.
liuliu 3 hours ago [-]
The problem, of course, is if you run the UD_Q2 variant (Unsloth) which does only post-training, the number is pretty close to 1-bit model here and the 5% drop in tool-call is significant than it suggests in real-life use cases.
liuliu 2 hours ago [-]
You also need to pay close attention to BFCLv3 multi-turn result, that helps you to get a sense how frequently these quants will be in a doom loop.
h14h 17 minutes ago [-]
I'm curious what kind of results one could get from combining the clever quantization PrismML is doing here with something like LiquidAI's antidoom:
Tried it on Android and got "!!!!!!!!!!!!!" for answers.
gunalx 50 minutes ago [-]
The qwen models really seem to have this as a failure mode, its so annoying having a proper trace ending up in !!!!!! Garbage.
verdverm 49 minutes ago [-]
That's what happens when you quant too hard. I'm working on quant strats and evals for the same underlying qwen 27b models.
When I saw 27b on a phone, I thought not fitting, big phone, or aggressive quant. NVFP4 still takes 27G before KV cache.
syntaxing 2 hours ago [-]
For those curious about their demo, I’m pretty sure it’s using Locally AI (iOS only) that lmstudio acquired/aquihired a couple months ago.
thomasjb 2 hours ago [-]
I've been watching and waiting for this, interested to see how smart it is, as it fits with my interest of getting the smartest possible model running in 10GB of VRAM (RTX3060 that has to drive 2 monitors and run an llm)
dakolli 40 minutes ago [-]
start saving your money.
syntaxing 2 hours ago [-]
I don’t know if the llama cpp implementation is wonky (and only supports the binary version) but it’s a lot slower than 35B-A3B @ Q4_KM + MTP with CPU offloading.
pulse7 1 hours ago [-]
Most probably not optimized yet for this model...
wy35 39 minutes ago [-]
Entire blog post seems to be AI-generated :/
wmf 28 minutes ago [-]
Do you think people who work on AI for a living are not going to use it?
wy35 14 minutes ago [-]
Of course not, personally almost all of my code these days is generated.
The LLM style of writing is just very distracting to read. “It unlocks X”, “Y changes the equation”, and why is there always something shifting? Makes my eyes glaze over in an otherwise interesting post.
arjie 9 minutes ago [-]
The text is mostly content-free. Headline + charts are enough for most HN stories.
0xbadcafebee 17 minutes ago [-]
27B is way more than you need for a phone. Doesn't matter how much you try to compress it, it's the wrong application of the wrong tool. There are already useful tiny models that fit on phones and do basic things really well. Dumb down a big model too much and it becomes worse than a small fine-tuned model.
xyzsparetimexyz 2 hours ago [-]
That's awesome. What's the largest model that could fit onto a single 16gb gpu at 1.125 effects bits per weight?
Catloafdev 2 hours ago [-]
Doing some naive math, the F16 filesize is ~53.8gb, the 1-bit version is ~3.8gb, about 7% of the original size. The F16 size is roughly 2x param count, so that gives a rough ballpark of ~110B.
erelong 2 hours ago [-]
I was trying Ornith 9B locally (it's up on Ollama) which claims:
> Ornith-1.0-9B, which can be easily deployed on edge devices, matches or exceeds the performance of much larger models such as Gemma 4-31B and Qwen 3.6 35B.
Only tried it so much so far; it did a little better than Qwen 9B
liuliu 2 hours ago [-]
Note that 3.5 9B cannot do thinking (while 3.6 27B can, pretty effectively, quite verbosely).
gunalx 47 minutes ago [-]
3.5 9B can do thinking. Its just disabled by default in its gguf chat template.
liuliu 15 minutes ago [-]
It is disabled because it doesn't work :) Try it and see the doom loop it gets itself in.
verdverm 43 minutes ago [-]
Orinth was not impressive in my vibes testing, I just completed my first grid analysis with real evals on qwen 27b. I can now scale that grid analysis and intend to include the qwen 9b ftunes I've seen going around. They were actually a main motivation because so many claim this or that one is better, but very little in the way of evals
janalsncm 2 hours ago [-]
Is that a 1-bit LLM? I don’t understand the connection with this article.
erelong 1 hours ago [-]
Oh, I don't actually know the difference if you want to explain it
The title says it's 27B grade running on a phone and what I was comparing it to in my mind was a model that runs at 35B grade that could presumably run on a phone "better"?
edit: I asked AI for the difference and understand a little better, thanks for the heads up to learn the difference between models... I think the thing was, although ornith was created for a specific agentic purpose, it was still outperforming a previous generalist model I had running locally (so in my mind I thought it was still a better local model) - I'd like to try bonsai out if I can figure out how to run it lol
This is useful research, but this particular model itself is likely absolutely useless.
oceansweep 31 minutes ago [-]
Why make this comment without having tried it first? It very clearly is not useless and performs a lot better than one might expect. I am currently waiting to do more benchmarks of it in comparison to the full weight model, but it seems promising/better than Mistral Nemo at a lower file size.
Onavo 25 minutes ago [-]
I think what OP means is that the "minimum viable product" for a daily use LLM is probably somewhere around e.g. GPT 4o's level of intelligence (YMMV). Below a certain threshold, you are better off using specialized machine learning models rather than general purpose LLMs. It's very difficult to get that level of intelligence fully local on a mobile device without streaming to the cloud.
Rendered at 20:59:24 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
How does this model compare to a recent 4G model? How do we know it retained intelligence from the parent rather then being fine tuned for the benchmarks?
I am not shtng on them or anything. I'd rather find it amazing, BUT given my limited knowledge, I feel the results miss fair comparison plots and the ones might be misleading. Buy I also reckon it might be me the problem. Anyone care to explain this poor silly fellow some of those points?
[1] https://jackson.dev/post/dont-sleep-on-bitnet/
I've tried a couple in LM Studio - the GGUF one and the MLX one - but neither worked there. Anyone else get them to work? Might be that LM Studio needs to upgrade their llama.cpp or MLX engines first.
Details are here -> https://github.com/PrismML-Eng/Bonsai-demo/blob/main/README....
You can also join Discord to communicate with us directly http://discord.gg/prismml
At this point all the different quantization and 'compression' (look at MPO applied to LLMs...) techniques start feeling a bit like snake oil. It's just gut feeling - or scores on benchmarks models are optimized for - what ends up deciding whether a technique is good enough or not.
I wish KV-cache memory usage and related optimizations were discussed more clearly in new model announcements and demos.
I find these style of models are great, but fail hard, and fail randomly. I'd be hesitant to use it for a daily driver, but I'm using dual 3060s, so it's not like I'm quantizing a frontier model here.
How do you find the overall experience? And do you have any special sauce or recommendations for going this route?
Code if you'd like to reproduce or try other test sets: https://github.com/verdverm/quantr (lightly tuned to a single oem spark, probably possible in 32-48G)
Good paper to understand the effects of quant regimes across model families and tasks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.18158 (Evaluating Quantized Large Language Models - 2024 ICML)
Ternary Bonsai 27B uses ternary {−1, 0, +1} weights with FP16 group-wise scaling, giving a true 1.71 effective bits per weight.
1-bit Bonsai 27B uses binary {−1, +1} weights with the same group-wise scaling, giving 1.125 effective bits per weight.
is it a float? if so, how many bits is the float?
I've never heard of a bit ever having more than two possible values
It's not represented by a "bit", binary digit with value of 0 or 1; but with a "trit", ternary digit with value of {−1, 0, +1}.
Their fork corrects the second inefficiency by using a group size of 128, but still uses 2-bit weights AFAICT.
It's possible to pack 5 trits into a byte, but the unpacking is not very efficient. Another recent idea is to add the constraint that exactly one weight in each group of four be zero, which gives exactly 32 possible states, so it fits in 5 bits.
e.g. 5 trits (243 states) into a byte gives 1.6 bits per trit: https://compilade.net/blog/ternary-packing
The way they do it is packing like the other comment says.
Each byte represents 5 trinary values instead of 8 binary, and there is a little bit of waste.
https://github.com/Liquid4All/antidoom
When I saw 27b on a phone, I thought not fitting, big phone, or aggressive quant. NVFP4 still takes 27G before KV cache.
The LLM style of writing is just very distracting to read. “It unlocks X”, “Y changes the equation”, and why is there always something shifting? Makes my eyes glaze over in an otherwise interesting post.
> Ornith-1.0-9B, which can be easily deployed on edge devices, matches or exceeds the performance of much larger models such as Gemma 4-31B and Qwen 3.6 35B.
https://deep-reinforce.com/ornith_1_0.html
Only tried it so much so far; it did a little better than Qwen 9B
The title says it's 27B grade running on a phone and what I was comparing it to in my mind was a model that runs at 35B grade that could presumably run on a phone "better"?
edit: I asked AI for the difference and understand a little better, thanks for the heads up to learn the difference between models... I think the thing was, although ornith was created for a specific agentic purpose, it was still outperforming a previous generalist model I had running locally (so in my mind I thought it was still a better local model) - I'd like to try bonsai out if I can figure out how to run it lol
I can just see their image tool on the app store
Available on HuggingFace: https://huggingface.co/collections/prism-ml/bonsai-27b