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Grand jury declines to indict Ohio man charged with destroying Flock camera (san.com)
dredmorbius 12 minutes ago [-]
This is not a jury nullification (which is an emergent property of US Constitutional double-jeopardy protections), but a failure to indict, that is to bring criminal charges (a "bill of indictment") for potential criminal conduct.

In this instance, the case has been dismissed, but might conceivably be brought again.

Why grand juries make the decisions they do is hard to determine, as their operations are (usually) secret. This may have simply been a case of insufficient evidence of a crime, or identity of the suspect ("probable cause"), as appealing as a broader backlash theory might be.

Much of this article appears to be either speculation or unsourced information if there was in fact resistance to bringing a Flock case by this grand jury. The latter might indicate a violation of secrecy oaths by jury members or other court officers.

Specific practices vary by state, not all of which use grand juries. All federal criminal cases rely on a grand jury.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juries_in_the_United_Sta...>

VikingCoder 5 minutes ago [-]
I got my catalytic converter stolen twice.

I hear Flock cameras have even more valuable materials inside them.

recursivedoubts 46 minutes ago [-]
Jury nullification ain't sounding so bad anymore, is it?
dredmorbius 29 minutes ago [-]
This isn't jury nullification which occurs during a criminal trial, and for which US Constitutional double-jeopardy protections mean that no further trial for the same offence may be brought.

This is a grand jury, which has refused to bring an indictment. There is no double-jeopardy protection here. The prosecutor has several options:

- Bring the case directly to a judge.

- File charges with a new grand jury. (Grand juries typically sit for a period of time.)

In this case, however, charges have been dismissed. There are several variants here, one is "dismissed with prejudice", which means that those specific charges cannot be applied again. TFA doesn't note this (or indeed much else of substance in this case), so the presumption is that charges are dismissed without prejudice.

What is notable here is that grand juries almost always vote to indict. This isn't a verdict of "guilty", but rather, a finding of sufficient cause to bring trial. As the saying goes, "a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich",[1] that is, overwhelmingly (apparently 95%+ of the time) a prosecutor easily convinces a grand jury to file charges.

Given that grand jury proceedings are usually secret (there are exceptions), and we have no further insight as to what the basis of this decision was, there's not much inference which can be made, though I'd lean more strongly to weak evidence than any specific anti-Flock backlash, much as I'd prefer to believe the latter.[3][4]

________________________________

Notes:

1. Sol Wachtler: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Wachtler>

2. On grand juries, generally: <https://legalknowledgebase.com/what-does-it-mean-when-a-gran...>

3. On dismissal of charges: <https://andrewalpert.com/blog/what-does-dismissed-with-preju...>

jobs_throwaway 10 minutes ago [-]
The common refrain is "you can get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich". The standards required to indict are quite low. The fact that they failed to get an indictment here must mean they had ~nothing.
oceansky 7 minutes ago [-]
Judges have a lot of freedom to decide sentences. They might get one willing to throw the book on him. The risk is still there.
dredmorbius 9 minutes ago [-]
Quoted, and sourced, in the comment you're replying to.

Yes, I'm aware.

consensus1 17 minutes ago [-]
Never did
aizk 46 minutes ago [-]
This reads like a newspaper snippet you discover in a cyberpunk video game.
cryptoegorophy 17 minutes ago [-]
1984 edition
pluralmonad 10 minutes ago [-]
Sad to see how quickly the narrative has been pushed from "you should not collect this data" to a bunch of "we need common sense guardrails" comments.
SoftTalker 26 minutes ago [-]
Why would a simple vandalism charge go to a grand jury?
alistairSH 18 minutes ago [-]
Because that's how you get a felony criminal case started in Ohio (and most, if not all, states and any federal felony cases).
wl 21 minutes ago [-]
Felonies go before a grand jury in Ohio. The article talks about damages in excess of $1,000, which probably means it's a felony charge on that basis.
Someone1234 10 minutes ago [-]
Looks like in Ohio the thresholds are:

- 0 to $999: misdemeanor

- 1K: 5th-degree felony

- 7.5K-150K: 4th-degree felony

- 150K+: 3th-degree felony

But what I found interesting is - They aren't automatically inflation adjusted, it has to be manually adjusted by legislation. Which hasn't been done since 2011 meaning that in 2026 terms it would be $1.5K~ for a 5th-degree felony for like-for-like level of damage.

Kind of nuts how a poorly written law can increase the number of felonies just due to inflation alone. Although a lot of things aren't automatically inflation adjusted (e.g. minimum wage), and I think commonly it is on purpose rather than an accident. They WANT harsher sentences for relative low crimes.

2 minutes ago [-]
goda90 15 minutes ago [-]
What makes an ALPR cost more than $1000 per unit?
s_tec 6 minutes ago [-]
Probably the pole, footing, and wages for the installation crew.
kiddico 12 minutes ago [-]
The markup I assume
22 minutes ago [-]
23 minutes ago [-]
ratelimitsteve 3 minutes ago [-]
The state will try again until they get the result that they have determined is correct.
josefritzishere 28 minutes ago [-]
This is true patriotism.
lenerdenator 41 minutes ago [-]
>The backlash against Flock has intensified as a growing number of police officers have been accused of or charged with abusing the technology, often to stalk romantic interests. As of Aug. 12, there had been more than 100 cases of abuse by law enforcement, according to the Institute for Justice.

In response, Flock announced new safeguards designed to prevent misuse by police. Critics, such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation, argue that the reforms are largely “cosmetic,” and that warrants should be required for searching license plate reader data.

I'll go further: the gathering of such information should only be allowable by a sworn law enforcement officer acting under a warrant or some other sort of judicial permission during an active investigation.

Flock and Axon are private companies. What's to stop them from selling this license plate data to the police or to other parties to pad their quarterly numbers? Actually, I'd be surprised if they're not already doing this. A friend of mine is in the camera business and was wondering how the hell they're making the money they're making off of local and state government contracts.

jubilanti 6 minutes ago [-]
> A friend of mine is in the camera business and was wondering how the hell they're making the money they're making off of local and state government contracts.

The Los Angeles Police Department annual budget is over $2 billion. A couple million a year to flock is a drop in the bucket.

skinfaxi 36 minutes ago [-]
> A friend of mine is in the camera business and was wondering how the hell they're making the money they're making off of local and state government contracts.

The contract awards are public no? Axon et al probably make the majority of their money on service charges for storing, accessing the data rather than on the cameras themselves.

someothherguyy 31 minutes ago [-]
infecto 29 minutes ago [-]
No, they don’t as far as I have seen sell data for commercial purposes.
brk 23 minutes ago [-]
Yet?

You have to admit, the precedent for them being a company that understands the sensitivity of this data has not been set.

infecto 21 minutes ago [-]
Get rid of the what if hyperbole and focus on the core reason why it’s bad. These contracts do not allow commercial use. Could they in the future but so what, focus on the here and now.
infecto 29 minutes ago [-]
Flock sucks but I think these kind of conspiracies hurt the argument. You can go look at a number of these contracts since they are part of your local city/municipality.

A typical flock agreement is pretty firm that the data is the customers. Some of it might be used for training. There is opt-in to share with other law enforcement but I have not yet seen anything around commercial use.

I don’t think much padding is necessary. It’s a metal pole with a cheap camera and SIM card. They charge $3-5k a year per camera. The only upfront cost is a local contractor to install the camera, they typically have one that covers a very large region. Huge margins with that alone.

consensus1 7 minutes ago [-]
It's too late for that. This would have maybe worked 30 years ago, but since the Patriot Act and FISA we have literal secret courts approving >99% of the government's requests for surveillance. The existence of the data is now enough to guarantee its misuse.
mc32 30 minutes ago [-]
Anyone accessing data from this system should have an active case they are assigned to, anything else should be subject to disciplinary action just as with HIPAA. It should have tamper evident audit trails. It should not be on a whim. If emergency access is needed they have to retroactively get reviewed and approved and if it was not in line with any active investigation or assist in an active investigation again it should come under serious scrutiny with actionable consequences.
jubilanti 2 minutes ago [-]
HIPAA violations are not crimes and HIPAA does not give a right of private action, meaning you can't sue if someone violates your HIPAA rights. HIPAA enforcement is delegated only to the Department of Health and Human Services, under the whims of Robert F. Kennedy. If RFK doesn't want to take action about your HIPAA case, there's no other recourse.
superkuh 54 minutes ago [-]
This is only fair play given the cities and DAs around the country have refused to indict or prosecute Flock surveillance when they break the law.
buellerbueller 53 minutes ago [-]
Good. Let the techbros understand we don't want a surveillance state.
jvanderbot 48 minutes ago [-]
I agree.

However the agent here with the power is the state and local and federal government. They're just going to do drones next if they can't do sensor masts.

Everyone who authorized this funding needs to be voted out. If we really care the signal is to take away the power of people who decided to use this.

skinfaxi 39 minutes ago [-]
> Everyone who authorized this funding needs to be voted out. If we really care the signal is to take away the power of people who decided to use this.

Yes, and we should continue to nullify convictions for activists fighting this technology on the streets. If they use drones lets shoot them down and nullify those charges too. The court is the final stand and juries are where we the citizens have actual power.

pluralmonad 42 minutes ago [-]
I think my vote might be broken. It keeps not working.
AndrewKemendo 40 minutes ago [-]
Try power cycling the system
skinfaxi 38 minutes ago [-]
Hah, as if power allows vacuums.
recursivedoubts 45 minutes ago [-]
If voting made a difference they wouldn't let us do it.

Stop blaming the victims.

saghm 31 minutes ago [-]
Can you be more specific? Are you claiming that the winner is not actually whoever gets the most votes (e.g. voter fraud, corrupt vote counting), or that someone who would not authorize something like this would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot? Those are the only two scenarios I can think of that would result in the conclusion you're stating.

As far as I can tell, people who claim the former are almost overwhelming the ones voting for the people who are worst about stuff like this. I've honestly never seen anyone claim the latter though, so if that's what you believe, elaborating more would be helpful.

bandofthehawk 22 minutes ago [-]
The candidate would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot, and it happens regularly. For an example, look what happened to Butch Ware in the California election recently.
RobotToaster 23 minutes ago [-]
The last person to stand for president who managed to get political momentum and wanted real change in the system was Eugene Debs, and they arrested him.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 16 minutes ago [-]
> or that someone who would not authorize something like this would literally not be allowed to show up on the ballot?

I'm surprised that you've never encountered this persepective before, it seems a very common one to me.

The first thing I think about is the South Park episode in which the elementary school had to vote for a school mascot and they were given the choice of either "a giant douche" or "a turd sandwich".

The second thing is another South Park episode (circa 2009), for which they actually produced two episodes (and aired one) for the Presidential election between McCain and Obama. Regardless of who would win, the plot was the same: the winner colludes with the loser in a National Treasure-style heist, with the election just being part of the setup.

In the latter example, the message seems to be that it doesn't matter who wins because the same outcomes occur. The former example probably doesn't need explaining.

Anyway, yeah, it would be nice to choose something better than a turd sandwich but when the other option is a giant douche, what is there to do? The way I see it, you either vote for someone who you know stands no chance (Jill Stein, btw), don't vote at all, or vote for the turd sandwich (or the giant douche, if that's your persuasion).

Clent 15 minutes ago [-]
Except there are multiple efforts to make voting more difficult.
nicman23 44 minutes ago [-]
lol trump got voted in. i blame the voters - there are not victims here
RobotToaster 31 minutes ago [-]
You think Cop Kamala would've opposed flock? lol, lmao even.
32 minutes ago [-]
ydat 44 minutes ago [-]
They have the warchest. They’ll buy the politicians. Look how the populist right has failed its primaries so hard.
datsci_est_2015 39 minutes ago [-]
Could you elaborate? Specifically:

> Look how the populist right has failed its primaries so hard.

From my bubble (we’re all in bubbles), it seems that the populist right are in bed with the technocrat authoritarians, e.g. the Vance-Thiel connection. Losses in primaries would indicate to me that the technocrat authoritarians are not succeeding in purchasing politicians.

RobotToaster 33 minutes ago [-]
Look at all the dodgy business that went on around the Thomas Massie primary.
watwut 19 minutes ago [-]
I read it as technocrats Vance-Thiel successfully bought populist MAGA politicians. Those then failed in primaries, because electorate including portion of maga base rejects them. The "buying politicians" step was successful.

Now they need to buy new politicians and will definitely try.

ydat 35 minutes ago [-]
> From my bubble (we’re all in bubbles), it seems that the populist right are in bed with the technocrat authoritarians, e.g. the Vance-Thiel connection.

Interesting, in my bubble “populist” right refers more younger more paleo conservative types who feel betrayed by MAGA. Many of these people hate Thiel and Technocrats as much as my Marxist friends.

I’m gonna guess (and tell me if I’m wrong) the disconnect is that you may be referring to the Trump admin itself which is indeed in bed with Thiel types. Personally I don’t really bother considering them populist anymore. They seem to mostly be interested in enriching their little circle.

Cyph0n 40 minutes ago [-]
The warchest is not enough: the NYC mayoral election and Michigan and Florida Senate (outfunded 16:1) primaries are good examples.
anonymars 33 minutes ago [-]
Remember, if your vote didn't matter there wouldn't be so much effort to restrict it!
50 minutes ago [-]
throwfaraway135 23 minutes ago [-]
Life is considered the highest value in the west. So let me ask you this. Is the life of a person less worth than your privacy?
VBprogrammer 16 minutes ago [-]
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Benjamin Franklin
sfdlkj3jk342a 7 minutes ago [-]
It's obviously a balance. But if you're asking if say 1,000 lost lives per year is worth it to save the privacy of 350 million people, I would say yes.

Just look at the 10's of thousands of people who die every year so that we have the convenience of driving cars. Not to mention the millions whose health are affected by the air pollution.

Ardon 17 minutes ago [-]
People don't think the invasion of their privacy will 1. save lives, and 2. not take lives.

Faith in governments is not only low, people are pretty sure any power governments have will be abused.

The equation is a little bigger than that, basically.

foltik 11 minutes ago [-]
False dichotomy.
seethishat 20 minutes ago [-]
Property damage is a crime.

I don't object to Flock cameras or any other public cameras. But if I did, I would write to my congress person rather than commit a crime and destroy someone's property.

gypsy_boots 8 minutes ago [-]
weak.

There is a juggernaut of surveillance consuming everything in its path, where laws are skirted to install surveillance instruments and due process might as well not exist. And you're talking about "protecting property" and pulling out your little pen and paper to tell your congressperson "i'd like you to try this instead, please"

I'm sorry, no. You don't necessarily have to be the one taking action in the streets, by all means write your letter, but please don't criticize others and pretend that your approach will get you any further than other peoples approach

ungreased0675 8 minutes ago [-]
Writing a letter to your congressman does nothing.
tastyfreeze 9 minutes ago [-]
Self governance means more that picking people to lord over you.
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