I learned (can't remember where) that I should try to rotate the cooler a little bit, with the mounting clamp still on, before undoing the clamp and removing it.
I still have a working Athlon XP / KT133A with ISA under my desk.
Aurornis 5 hours ago [-]
Hardcore builders will remove the lid of their CPU to get the best possible thermal contact. The performance improvement is very small and not worth it but the bragging rights are fun. Unless you destroy the chip while delidding it, that is.
srean 1 hours ago [-]
Your comment reminded me of my K6 (or was it a K7) based PC I had assembled as a high schooler of modest means.
My goto testing protocol was to recompile the Linux kernel and make GNU chess play itself at the highest settings.
I was quite disheartened to find that my rig would crash out repeatedly. Not a single successful compilation of the kernel. Then on a whim I removed the case and pointed my table fan at it. Voila, everything worked.
I had planned to get some more thermal paste and redo the thermals and put the case back. But I never did.
Then one day the dialer of my landline got fried by a thunderstorm. No problem I used to dial using my modem and my skeletonic linux box.
Great setup when the money is tight. Good times.
joaquincabezas 19 minutes ago [-]
Table fan was the way to go in our first LAN party during the summer of the year 2000 in the south of Spain. These computer case side panels were all piled against the wall.
jdiff 5 hours ago [-]
The article mentions this, but this was before CPUs had lids. When delidding a CPU, you have to be very careful not to crack the silicon die that you are applying force directly to. In the case of this Athlon, even care wasn't enough.
polpo 4 hours ago [-]
Interestingly, AMD's previous gen processors, the K6/K6-2/K6-III, were all lidded flip chips. A delidded K6-era CPU looks remarkably similar to the early Athlons which did away with the lid.
3453f4f 4 hours ago [-]
There are three good pieces of history for you to look at.
First, the NexGen Nx686 prototype... that became the K6 after AMD bought NexGen.
Flip-chip packaging is still common in laptops. Still a (albeit minor) risk if you're repasting an older laptop.
formerly_proven 2 hours ago [-]
The article is mistaken, all the lidded chips (discussed here) are also flip chip/C4. Just with a metal plate on top. That would be in contrast to the earlier lidded chips (like a 68k or i486) with ceramic packages, where the chip is mounted right side up on the ceramic package and then wire bonded, the lid just covers the bond wires.
weiran 2 hours ago [-]
TBH I don’t think I’ve seen a lidded chip on anything other than a CPU.
NuclearPM 1 hours ago [-]
Thank you for being honest.
theandrewbailey 1 hours ago [-]
The first time I built a PC, and the first time I mounted a heatsink, was to one of these bare die AMD CPUs. I heard about the fragility of these, and must have read the directions about ten times, and paused and checked each step about five times while doing it. It came out fine, but it was nerve wracking as hell.
Overclocking an Athlon XP 2500+ to a 3200+ was pretty cool. Easiest overclock ever.
jnpnj 17 minutes ago [-]
Even as a naive teen, I always found the mechanical forces required to clamp cpu heatsinks and fans brutally high considering the small ceramic package underneath.
bdavbdav 48 minutes ago [-]
Was that the ol’ pencil mod?
theandrewbailey 43 minutes ago [-]
No. AMD was taking 3200+ chips and binning/selling them as 2500+ chips. All it took was increasing the FSB speed in the BIOS, and a bit of luck from the silicon lottery. No hardware mods.
cdmckay 35 minutes ago [-]
Reminds of me of the Celeron 300A to 450 overclock.
Torkel 4 hours ago [-]
Is that actually the silicon that's on top of a cpu?
I've always assumed the silicon is super thin - "wafer" thin. And then some material is added where the bonding wires etc are embedded in and the pads or pins are attached to.
For sure it's like this on newer CPUs, where there is not a single piece of silicon bit rather multiple ones with interconnect between them.
Tuna-Fish 1 hours ago [-]
Chips are made from silicon wafers that are ~0.8mm thick. The transistor layer is built on one side of the wafer (because the transistors need to be built from epitaxial silicon, that is, where all the atoms are neatly arranged, and you cannot deposit a perfect epitaxial layer). Then the metal layers are built on top, by depositing copper and dielectric (traditionally silicon dioxide, that is, glass, but these days some more exotic stuff is used too).
Then that chip is flipped around, so the transistors and metal layers face the pcb. Most of the chip on the upside is just bulk silicon, and there for structural and heat spreading purposes, it's not needed for operation.
When chips are built out of multiple stacked layers, typically they thin the chips that go below and leave a thick bulk layer on the topmost one. IIRC, for some AMD chips they needed to use a separate, unprocessed bulk heat spreader layer for bonding reasons.
Ekaros 3 hours ago [-]
I would guess that the effective layers are super thin. But such super thin parts do not have much structural integrity. So you leave material under it so that you can handle it. And then just drill to those parts as needed.
3 hours ago [-]
keyringlight 2 hours ago [-]
On the bottom [0], youtuber/cooling specialist/tuner der8auer did an interview with an intel engineer a few years ago. One of the points they bring up is that it's not a pure gain to have less silicon between the logic and the next interface to another material conducting heat away as the silicon itself acts as a conductor/spreader, i.e. sideways as well as upwards, so there's a balance.
No, that’s the die sawed out of a wafer. Those are wafer-thin, i.e. about 0.8mm. On some newer CPUs the wafer is ground down to improve thermals. In normal C4 packaging like here the active layer is sandwiched between the metal layers (which sit on the interposer PCB) and the bulk silicon (95% of the thickness upwards, to the camera). Silicon is not a great heat conductor.
moffkalast 2 hours ago [-]
There was just this video [0] yesterday showing the whole process for a GaN LED, it's fascinating how crude the post processing can be in contrast with the ultra precise etching and layering.
I've got one sitting next to me that I'm in the process of rejuvenating. The north bridge has a small fan with integrated heatsink/boat that I'm searching for. The CPU fan is still okay. It's a pre-PCIe system, and has a VGA output (no DVI or HDMI).
The main reason I'm keeping it around is that it's got 5-1/4" & 3-1/2" floppy drives, and T1000 and DDR4 tape drives.
walrus01 3 hours ago [-]
the fan is likely a 12vdc 40x40mm, relatively shallow one (not very high airflow and not loud) one so you should be able to get a replacement from mouser or digikey. it's basically the same thing as a 80mm case fan from the same era scaled down.
8cvor6j844qw_d6 5 hours ago [-]
Is it ever fixable assuming one had unlimited money and wants to fix instead of rebuy?
jdiff 5 hours ago [-]
You'd need unlimited money and hyperadvanced future technology. There's just no way to get things lined up and no way to reconnect any of it and no way to reclaim or reattach any of the tiny bits of silicon that preferred to become dust rather than take sides.
nanolith 4 hours ago [-]
If you had enough money to convince AMD to sell you the tapeout, and if you could hire a fab using a similar process, you could make a new CPU. Other than that... probably not.
The next best thing would be buying a replacement.
dist-epoch 4 hours ago [-]
Maybe, you would have to buy AMD or make them sell you the schema/chip masks for this chip, then buy ASML and ask them to spend the next 10 years figuring out how to regrow silicon on the broken chip layer by layer while also re-exposing the missing part. You would probably also need to buy a chunk of TSMC since this would require advanced chemical processing such that you can re-grow and re-expose a part of the chip without destroying the existing part. You would also need a lot of investment in scanning technology, to measure exactly what the current state of the chip is and what needs rebuilding and where.
nubinetwork 2 hours ago [-]
You could change the chip on the substrate, but why, you could just get another cpu...
Zardoz84 4 hours ago [-]
nope
moffkalast 2 hours ago [-]
Just jam the piece back in there, I'm sure it'll be fine. /s
nubinetwork 2 hours ago [-]
Heat probably cracked it. I had a xp2000+ and even with a heavy copper heatsink and a 9000rpm delta fan, the thing still ran hot.
avazhi 3 hours ago [-]
We need those microscope guys to take some shots of this.
Rendered at 11:52:21 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
I still have a working Athlon XP / KT133A with ISA under my desk.
My goto testing protocol was to recompile the Linux kernel and make GNU chess play itself at the highest settings.
I was quite disheartened to find that my rig would crash out repeatedly. Not a single successful compilation of the kernel. Then on a whim I removed the case and pointed my table fan at it. Voila, everything worked.
I had planned to get some more thermal paste and redo the thermals and put the case back. But I never did.
Then one day the dialer of my landline got fried by a thunderstorm. No problem I used to dial using my modem and my skeletonic linux box.
Great setup when the money is tight. Good times.
First, the NexGen Nx686 prototype... that became the K6 after AMD bought NexGen.
https://web.archive.org/web/19990901212245/http://www.sandpi...
https://web.archive.org/web/20000831030211/http://www.sandpi...
https://web.archive.org/web/20000831030227/http://www.sandpi...
Second, the AMD K6 prototype... which came in a small footprint ceramic package.
https://www.cpushack.com/chippics/AMD/K6/AMDK6-Processor-CA-...
Third, the AMD K7... which also came in that small footprint ceramic package, on a Slot A PCB, with L2 cache chips.
http://www.cpu-galerie.de/html/amdk7athlonslot.html
Enjoy!
Thanks for the nostalgia trip.
Overclocking an Athlon XP 2500+ to a 3200+ was pretty cool. Easiest overclock ever.
I've always assumed the silicon is super thin - "wafer" thin. And then some material is added where the bonding wires etc are embedded in and the pads or pins are attached to.
For sure it's like this on newer CPUs, where there is not a single piece of silicon bit rather multiple ones with interconnect between them.
Then that chip is flipped around, so the transistors and metal layers face the pcb. Most of the chip on the upside is just bulk silicon, and there for structural and heat spreading purposes, it's not needed for operation.
When chips are built out of multiple stacked layers, typically they thin the chips that go below and leave a thick bulk layer on the topmost one. IIRC, for some AMD chips they needed to use a separate, unprocessed bulk heat spreader layer for bonding reasons.
[0] https://youtu.be/ljZt_TQegHE?t=120
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHyoz8fFpUM
The main reason I'm keeping it around is that it's got 5-1/4" & 3-1/2" floppy drives, and T1000 and DDR4 tape drives.
The next best thing would be buying a replacement.