An underappreciated fact is that the Japanese/German renewable push starting in the early 2000s contributed a lot toward the global state of solar power now.
Solar programs/subsidies there is how a lot of local (and later Chinese) industry was bootstrapped despite being far from competitive with fossil energy back then.
Those initiatives might have accelerated the whole solar power industry by half a decade or more. We are now reaping even (indirect) benefit from industrializing countries (Pakistan, India, etc) that go straight to solar instead of conventional plants.
People often insist that western climate initiatives are "meaningless", "wasteful" and "ineffective", but examples like this prove that global effects are absolutely realistic.
If those two countries had fully invested into nuclear power back then, we might be significantly worse off right now as far as global CO2 emissions are concerned.
infecto 37 minutes ago [-]
At least in America the greatest hurdle imo is both the cost of labor and the local/state red tape that has been pushed from local grid operators. Balcony solar should be available in all states across the country. I know on my state they require all this additional steps to get solar (including a bs solar study for your home) which just amounts to a significant permit fee which makes the investment less economical.
mainecoder 30 minutes ago [-]
The problem with Solar is once someone buys it they can continuously use it for a long time with out participating in the economy. That is unacceptable especially from local grid providers and many in the energy sector and since China makes the best solar panels in quality and quantity that will take us maybe more than 3 years to catch up just in quality, it makes them even more bold in not allowing or making it hard for solar to proliferate. The risk is that the cost of energy will be high enough not to make manufacturing and other sector competitive enough but that does not matter as long as energy sector makes money the US can decline the number one goal is each individuals own goal there is no collective goal unless it just happens to be sadly a goal that is shared and individually beneficial.
thinkcontext 10 minutes ago [-]
> The problem with Solar is once someone buys it they can continuously use it for a long time with out participating in the economy.
An odd statement. That could be considered a "problem" for an incumbent energy provider, like say Exxon. But it would be considered a solution for an energy user who would now have more money to devote to something else in the economy.
mainecoder 26 minutes ago [-]
This is also supported by the Federal gov since recently power inverters were banned and there is no major US maker of power inverters this is purposely a policy designed to stymie Solar proliferation. This policy was bought and paid for by the energy sector.
cucumber3732842 17 minutes ago [-]
It's not just the energy sector though being big business I assume they do the bulk of the lobbying.
The electrician's trade groups and that whole supply chain are also scared shitless of a future where you can't lord a meter connection over people.
To an only slightly lesser degree building inspectors and Karens of all colors are also not fans for similar reasons. In exurban and rural areas (i.e. below a certain density depending on climate) the idea that some guy could just move into an old house or slap up a new building, throw up a bunch of panels on a stand, throw a bunch of batteries in a shed and live there without cutting checks to all sorts of parties and jumping through all sorts of compliance hoops and that you'd have to go after them after the fact is a big threat to these people's ability to micromanage how other people live.
gniv 33 minutes ago [-]
“If you have a massive cloud formation, the rooftop PV production can drop by so much that it looks like you have lost basically almost a nuclear power station.”
A good problem to have but still a problem. Who would have thought weather forecasting would be critical to grid maintenance.
ZeroGravitas 3 minutes ago [-]
Weirdly phrased since when you have a full, real nuclear plant you need to be ready to deal with that tripping off the grid suddenly, because it happens regularly.
ThunderSizzle 18 minutes ago [-]
Weather forecasting is important even before solar/wind. Extreme, temporary temperature swings require the power company to be prepared for the extra power generation.
With just coal/gas/hydro, this can be mitigated much easily, but still needs to be handled with care. If not, then the lack of power generation could cause brownouts for hours or days as backup power generation takes time to spin up.
Since we build for "1-in-a-100", it's expected we'll have these failures, as a 1% chance every year is a pretty high chance that will keep increasing as these power companies rely more on non-failsafe power generation strategies. Texas is the extreme example, where over-reliance on those systems caused too much damage.
bryanlarsen 21 minutes ago [-]
It always has been. A weather forecast is a major input into future demand prediction. Not just for heating and cooling, but there are also many second order effects.
Also severe weather predictions are crucial to have the staff ready to respond to grid outages due to weather.
triceratops 23 minutes ago [-]
> Who would have thought weather forecasting would be critical to grid maintenance.
They already have to keep an eye on the weather. For example, to predict demand spikes during heatwaves or cold snaps.
bryanlarsen 43 minutes ago [-]
Hopefully at some point the price of tokens will collapse, forcing data centers onto cheaper renewable energy in order to stay profitable.
abeppu 26 minutes ago [-]
Or the quality of tokens will improve such that I don't have to ask model A to critique and summarize tokens from model B.
chrishill89 33 minutes ago [-]
I like the idea of getting rooftop solar. The solar cells themselves are cheap. But the hitch is (1) living far north, (2) cloudy climate, (2) hiring professionals, (3) paying for an inverter and other interconnections, (4) paying for a "safe for a house" battery if I want any solar after 14:00 in the winter (N) ...
This is Norway and it's been raining all summer. So you'd think hydro would make all of this moot. Doesn't seem it. Because the rates were high even after all the rain.
I have high hopes for solar and batteries, but for the grid. I don't like the idea of a grid upgrade coming indirectly via thousands of bespoke homeowner increase my property value projects.
jwr 27 minutes ago [-]
Inverters are indeed expensive, so are batteries (and you will need batteries to make good use of solar; otherwise, you will be getting the ridiculously low energy company rates for what you over-produce). Being far north is somewhat compensated by the fact that solar batteries run much more efficiently when they are cold. Also, modern solar cells are surprisingly effective on cloudy days, unless it is really dark.
toasty228 22 minutes ago [-]
> Being far north is somewhat compensated by the fact that solar batteries run much more efficiently when they are cold
Uh? It's a major pain in the ass, you actually need to heat these batteries, most won't even charge below 0c, their peak performance is in the 15-25c range
toasty228 31 minutes ago [-]
That far north batteries and solar don't make much sense in winter, by the time you can cover three cloudy winter days you'll generate enough energy in summer to be legally considered as a small local electric plant.
JumpCrisscross 31 minutes ago [-]
> rates were high even after all the rain
Do Norwegian hydro prices vary with rainfall?
I live in Western Wyoming. We feed off cheap Pacific Northwestern hydro. It's a fixed price. (I pay a bit more for wind + hydro, but it's still fixed.)
The article lists top PV manufacturers and their efficiency ratings, production warranty, and other statistics. There are several Chinese companies on the list with 25+ year warranties. The article's top-rated manufacturer in the category of "Longest production warranty" is ZNShine Solar, a Chinese company that offers a 30 year warranty.
JumpCrisscross 17 minutes ago [-]
Thanks! What is the significance of all-black models?
triceratops 14 minutes ago [-]
I think it's more cosmetic than anything else. All black panels blend in better with dark roofs.
toasty228 33 minutes ago [-]
80% of panels are made in China, if they were all so terrible I doubt they would dominate the market so much
JumpCrisscross 32 minutes ago [-]
> if they were all so terrible I doubt they would dominate the market
Plenty of markets are dominated by the less-durable product offered at a lower up-front cost.
toasty228 24 minutes ago [-]
They all come with ~30 years warranty, I think you're stuck in the 1970s when it comes to Chines manufacturing capabilities, the top of the line chinese factories are just as good as EU/US ones, probably even more high tech
JumpCrisscross 17 minutes ago [-]
> you're stuck in the 1970s when it comes to Chines manufacturing capabilities
Probably not, having done contract manufacturing in China quite recently. Asking for a source isn't the same as disputing an assertion.
> top of the line chinese factories are just as good as EU/US ones, probably even more high tech
This is my guess. I like to substantiate my guesses.
sephamorr 29 minutes ago [-]
For a residential setting, installation quality probably dominates, and I doubt country of origin is statistically significant. Otherwise look at warranties which specify a performance curve over lifetime (generally 25y, also some are independently guaranteed by an insurance company that might actually survive that long). There are public performance datasets from NREL, TUV, but be careful about choosing representative examples (e.g. utility scale reliability is different from rooftop)
0utcast 56 minutes ago [-]
Offensively cheap to the billionaires because they'll start losing consistent money.
boxed 35 minutes ago [-]
I believe the article means like attacking, not like rude. English is weird sometimes.
ihsw 34 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 14:52:53 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Solar programs/subsidies there is how a lot of local (and later Chinese) industry was bootstrapped despite being far from competitive with fossil energy back then.
Those initiatives might have accelerated the whole solar power industry by half a decade or more. We are now reaping even (indirect) benefit from industrializing countries (Pakistan, India, etc) that go straight to solar instead of conventional plants.
People often insist that western climate initiatives are "meaningless", "wasteful" and "ineffective", but examples like this prove that global effects are absolutely realistic.
If those two countries had fully invested into nuclear power back then, we might be significantly worse off right now as far as global CO2 emissions are concerned.
An odd statement. That could be considered a "problem" for an incumbent energy provider, like say Exxon. But it would be considered a solution for an energy user who would now have more money to devote to something else in the economy.
The electrician's trade groups and that whole supply chain are also scared shitless of a future where you can't lord a meter connection over people.
To an only slightly lesser degree building inspectors and Karens of all colors are also not fans for similar reasons. In exurban and rural areas (i.e. below a certain density depending on climate) the idea that some guy could just move into an old house or slap up a new building, throw up a bunch of panels on a stand, throw a bunch of batteries in a shed and live there without cutting checks to all sorts of parties and jumping through all sorts of compliance hoops and that you'd have to go after them after the fact is a big threat to these people's ability to micromanage how other people live.
A good problem to have but still a problem. Who would have thought weather forecasting would be critical to grid maintenance.
With just coal/gas/hydro, this can be mitigated much easily, but still needs to be handled with care. If not, then the lack of power generation could cause brownouts for hours or days as backup power generation takes time to spin up.
TVA experienced an issue like this in 2023, where it was inadequately ready for a winter storm: https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/report-examin...
Since we build for "1-in-a-100", it's expected we'll have these failures, as a 1% chance every year is a pretty high chance that will keep increasing as these power companies rely more on non-failsafe power generation strategies. Texas is the extreme example, where over-reliance on those systems caused too much damage.
Also severe weather predictions are crucial to have the staff ready to respond to grid outages due to weather.
They already have to keep an eye on the weather. For example, to predict demand spikes during heatwaves or cold snaps.
This is Norway and it's been raining all summer. So you'd think hydro would make all of this moot. Doesn't seem it. Because the rates were high even after all the rain.
I have high hopes for solar and batteries, but for the grid. I don't like the idea of a grid upgrade coming indirectly via thousands of bespoke homeowner increase my property value projects.
Uh? It's a major pain in the ass, you actually need to heat these batteries, most won't even charge below 0c, their peak performance is in the 15-25c range
Do Norwegian hydro prices vary with rainfall?
I live in Western Wyoming. We feed off cheap Pacific Northwestern hydro. It's a fixed price. (I pay a bit more for wind + hydro, but it's still fixed.)
However you inspired me to do some research, and I found this: https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/best-solar-pa....
The article lists top PV manufacturers and their efficiency ratings, production warranty, and other statistics. There are several Chinese companies on the list with 25+ year warranties. The article's top-rated manufacturer in the category of "Longest production warranty" is ZNShine Solar, a Chinese company that offers a 30 year warranty.
Plenty of markets are dominated by the less-durable product offered at a lower up-front cost.
Probably not, having done contract manufacturing in China quite recently. Asking for a source isn't the same as disputing an assertion.
> top of the line chinese factories are just as good as EU/US ones, probably even more high tech
This is my guess. I like to substantiate my guesses.