I currently drive a mid 2000s Ford truck, which runs great and meets my needs, but lately I got interested in minivans/people carriers. I pretty quickly realized that newer vehicles seem to not just record, but export a lot of driving data.
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
renjimen 5 minutes ago [-]
If you don't mind used, the Ford Transit Connect Wagon is an excellent option for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper. We have one and love it. It fits a double mattress with plenty of headroom room to sit up in bed. Ford discontinued it in 2023, hence the used requirement, but I believe you can turn off the internet connectivity on that model. We have a 2016 model (still going strong after 150,000km!) which has no internet connectivity, thankfully.
sippingabonedry 35 minutes ago [-]
Ford until recently sold a minivan that was ugly as sin (looked like an '87 Vanagon) because it was a panel van with seats added. They are popular with the campervan community.
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
renjimen 10 minutes ago [-]
I have the Ford Transit Connect "Wagon". It's a 2016 model with no internet connectivity. It can fit a double mattress in the back and is tall enough to sit up on the bed, unlike nearly every SUV. I cannot recommend it enough for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
helterskelter2 23 minutes ago [-]
I know some models of Ford allow you to pull the modem out. It doesn't even nag you about a connection problem.
detourdog 19 minutes ago [-]
By a slightly used one that has a 3g modem. My 2018 car no longer can phone home.
asdff 4 minutes ago [-]
That is interesting that they fail safe and don't just brick the car though. Maybe you can still go with a newer car but just wrap the antennae in foil or maybe just unplug it.
mistrial9 36 minutes ago [-]
> absence of data is data itself
oh that is endless.. if you are aware enough to do something about telemetry IMHO do that and don't obsess about loose ends.
helterskelter2 20 minutes ago [-]
I wonder how easy it would be to spoof the data sent back. Either with SQL injections, LLM prompt modification, or just thousands of goatse images.
Iolaum 8 minutes ago [-]
And risk having lawyers after you?
mahboi 24 minutes ago [-]
if an owner decides they are uncomfortable with the data sharing described within them, they are faced with (arguably) unfair choices:
- 01 accept the agreements regardless of their concerns
- 02 stop using their car's connected-vehicle features - which includes remote start, the app, and other very useful features
- 03 stop using the vehicle entirely
Easy, I take #2. Is that it? This whole time I thought the article was talking about telemetry the car sends regardless.
technothrasher 20 minutes ago [-]
I have essentially gone with option 2 in my Audi A3. Every time I turn the car on, it puts up a dialog that warns me that I've made the terrible, terrible decision to not allow remote data and forces me to say, "no, do not turn it on for me now," before I can do anything else on the screen. Every, single, time.
5 minutes ago [-]
hollow-moe 21 minutes ago [-]
Like #2 prevents the spying.
Let's ask some smart TV brands executives their opinion on the matter.
mahboi 16 minutes ago [-]
Smart TVs need wifi to be smart though. The cars have cell modems.
hn937758 9 minutes ago [-]
I was gifted a 90's ford pickup from a family member and plan to get caught up on maintenance and keep it forever. It runs fine and has been a good project. No telemetry and easy to work on.
tartoran 28 minutes ago [-]
Hope to see a new market for disabling telemetry and phonehome features from cars. It should be legal to do so, if you own the car I suppose. I'm thinking that rigth now few pople even know how much spying their new car does to them but this will change and as awareness grows more and more people will want to do it.
hellon3wheels 18 minutes ago [-]
I'd rather see it as a standard feature than as a new market.
ourmandave 42 minutes ago [-]
Ha ha, you fools! No one is collecting my data from my 22-year-old Scion while I drive past Flock cameras every day.
Wait...
eckelhesten 26 minutes ago [-]
There’s “oh he’s at the grocery store” data,
and then there’s “he’s driving in a way we don’t like, let’s make him pay more for his insurance” data.
deepsun 1 hours ago [-]
> As one notable exception, Honda improved its data collection practices to prevent sending precise geolocation to a third party associated with user tracking.
I know what my next car will be.
rdtsc 43 minutes ago [-]
I already like Honda and own models before they were connected to the cell network. But they are still not 100% there current models:
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
gwbas1c 44 minutes ago [-]
This seems like something that needs legislation to address.
goodmythical 26 minutes ago [-]
I'm sure that will go about as well as protecting the privacy of individuals in the face of "but the CHILDREN!" age verification.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
What are you some kind of anti-safe-driving nut?
milkytron 24 minutes ago [-]
Until people care about this, there is no reason for our representatives to limit it.
hellon3wheels 16 minutes ago [-]
Just like video store rental history, I bet they'll start caring about privacy if/when it begins affecting them personally
attila-lendvai 30 minutes ago [-]
good luck!
sadly, politicians are very happy about the centralization of power... they are the same team with the corporations.
prasadvara 1 hours ago [-]
The ongoing theme of all these responses was shifting the blame to the consumer.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
slowin 1 hours ago [-]
I'd love to push back, I'm not sure what that looks like though. I can't even get an open source/open hardware phone that's decent, let alone a car.
0c3ca83 45 minutes ago [-]
It looks like lobbying for increased consumer protection laws. Either you put on a suit and talk to politicians, or you work with and donate to groups that do.
devin 38 minutes ago [-]
For my part, I will not be purchasing a new car until they bring back physical controls and dump the spyware.
ad_fontes 51 minutes ago [-]
You might want to check out Slate. It's about the closest thing to an open vehicle platform I can imagine.
slowin 46 minutes ago [-]
Interesting and thank you! Just like I'd like a "dumb" tv that I could just plug a Linux machine running Kodi into, I'd like a car that was 100% free from smart features, yet gave me the hooks to power any of the systems with my own software/hardware.
wiml 33 minutes ago [-]
Does Slate actually make any statements about the level of telematics/surveillance in their vehicles?
goda90 28 minutes ago [-]
They say their vehicles have no modem by default, only leaving it as an option for fleet users. They also have no infotainment system to contain any sort of camera or microphone.
CarVac 27 minutes ago [-]
They do have a backup camera.
ad_fontes 27 minutes ago [-]
IIRC, they don't have a cellular radio in the vehicle (or even a FM radio). All the connectivity is done via Bluetooth with a mobile app.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
goodmythical 18 minutes ago [-]
Aren't their companies that are doing their telemetry over bluetooth bridge to phone' internet? Not saying slate necessarily does, but it's certainly an available exfil surface, especially if there's a 'manage your slate vehicle' app.
AlexandrB 43 minutes ago [-]
DMCA needs to be repealed or at least radically changed. Currently it's used as a cudgel by manufacturers to prevent customers from modifying the software in the stuff they buy. Legislation that requires vendors to provide documentation and stuff like "right to repair" would also go a long way.
gib444 38 minutes ago [-]
> I'm not sure what that looks like though
Two wheels and some impressive leg muscles !
olyjohn 8 minutes ago [-]
[delayed]
bnc319 46 minutes ago [-]
While the researchers noted Tesla as having privacy options that can be enabled in the car’s settings, they didn’t seem to test how this changes the # of ATA results. Would have been interesting to see how enabling privacy features changes things.
This was taken while the data privacy option was enabled. An employee going against policy and sharing it in slack for non-work related reasons does not change whether or not the toggle actually stops x camera from sending data back to the mothership.
filoleg 39 minutes ago [-]
The grandparent comment doesn't talk about anything Tesla (the company) says. They are sharing findings from independent researchers.
steelframe 51 minutes ago [-]
Still driving my GR Corolla with the data communications module fuse pulled.
jmdeon 30 minutes ago [-]
Such a fun car! It's my first fun car and oh man what a toy.
eckelhesten 24 minutes ago [-]
Really? I’ve never heard a Corolla be considered a fun car. It’s a point a to b car afaik.
Not to hate on your experience! They surely are reliable though.
7 minutes ago [-]
mahboi 19 minutes ago [-]
"GR" is the important detail. That means it's AWD with a stickshift and 300hp engine. Not my favorite anyway but yeah, it's not a regular Corolla.
ok_dad 18 minutes ago [-]
GR is gazoo racing, the Toyota performance line. From what I know it’s not just a badge.
17 minutes ago [-]
kazinator 31 minutes ago [-]
What is the situation like for people who rip out the entertainment system out of older cars and install Android Auto? How "bad" is that?
YuccaGloriosa 19 minutes ago [-]
And this is without even looking at any Chinese manufactured vehicles...
newspaper1 48 minutes ago [-]
I don't trust any of my devices anymore (including/especially my car). At the very least I figure that they're spying on me. In the most extreme cases, such as Israel's terrorist pager attack, they may even kill you.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
matltc 12 minutes ago [-]
I feel seen. I used to think rms was just a crank, but maybe he was right all along: I increasingly treat any closed-source software (and even some open-source--vscode for instance) as hostile and untrusted.
Ccecil 26 minutes ago [-]
I was kinda wondering the same. Only issue will be when insurance companies refuse to insure you because they can't get the "commonly available" data.
newspaper1 20 minutes ago [-]
Good point, the best bet is probably to move to a walkable city and get an e-bike that you put together yourself.
jamesforestwest 21 minutes ago [-]
It's so annoying, actually. I’d rather not switch to a newer car because of it.
mahboi 18 minutes ago [-]
I hate everything about newer cars except for the power/efficiency. And luckily I don't drive enough to care about that.
stego-tech 36 minutes ago [-]
When I buy an EV, one of the first things I intend to do is disable or block the chips using Wi-Fi and/or cellular from broadcasting further. If that means a faraday shield around the computers in question, so be it.
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.
xelaboi 15 minutes ago [-]
Some cars you can just pull the fuse on the ECU with the modem.
iamronaldo 49 minutes ago [-]
Not to take away from the point but wow absolute ai slop of a website
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
oh that is endless.. if you are aware enough to do something about telemetry IMHO do that and don't obsess about loose ends.
Wait...
and then there’s “he’s driving in a way we don’t like, let’s make him pay more for his insurance” data.
I know what my next car will be.
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
What are you some kind of anti-safe-driving nut?
sadly, politicians are very happy about the centralization of power... they are the same team with the corporations.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
Two wheels and some impressive leg muscles !
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
Not to hate on your experience! They surely are reliable though.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.