if you received the information about the RCEs without the information about the embargo, then you did not break the embargo. someone else up the chain did.
this whole saga will be analyzed and we'll all come out better for it at the end.
kinduff 34 minutes ago [-]
I hope this is bait because that's not how it works.
cperciva 29 minutes ago [-]
This is exactly how it works. People who are part of the embargo are responsible for making sure that anyone they share information with -- which should usually be nobody! -- are aware of and abide by the embargo.
john_strinlai 30 minutes ago [-]
you cannot be subject to an embargo of which you had no knowledge and took no participation in.
the embargo was already broken when pete received the information.
michaelbuckbee 25 minutes ago [-]
So if I read the post here and told someone, would I be breaking the embargo?
kinduff 16 minutes ago [-]
No, you didn't. I misread.
kinduff 18 minutes ago [-]
Okay, my bad. I didn't know he was not participating in the embargo.
dylan604 23 minutes ago [-]
This is not a situation where "Ignorantia juris non excusat" applies.
Don't be silly, you can't possibly be responsible for breaking an embargo you weren't subject to or informed about.
petecooper 9 hours ago [-]
That's fair. For clarity: I take responsibility for posting on HN, without knowing the facts.
Onavo 8 hours ago [-]
Not sure what you are apologizing for. It's a severely overblown bug that ended up on the front page of New York Times and the Japan Prime Minister had to get involved too. The bug itself is non trivial to exploit from just public requests to a web server so I am not sure what the hysteria is about. It's no different from the other hundred or so CVEs I see being posted or dropped everyday.
It will be headlines on Hacker News regardless due to sheer sensationalism, I think most DevSecOps people would rather find out the news here first than via their boss calling them after reading the morning news.
tptacek 6 minutes ago [-]
What does "non trivial to exploit from just public requests" mean? It's known to be exploitable on more than one stock PHP application. This really is a 5-alarm fire.
Klonoar 7 hours ago [-]
The Japanese PM did not “have” to get involved.
Onavo 5 hours ago [-]
Well, consider that their old IT minister has never used a computer in his life, it's probably a good thing she's the one issuing the call to update.
Fnoord 47 minutes ago [-]
You've used a computer the moment you aren't even born yet.
dylan604 15 minutes ago [-]
Okay, now I'm curious about what sci-fi trope you've gone too far down a rabbit hole in.
fouc 29 seconds ago [-]
[delayed]
bell-cot 9 hours ago [-]
Responsibility may include vetting your sources - is this person competent and dutiful, to actually know there's no embargo? - and researching the situation, and thinking several moves ahead, and other stuff.
Reality is that everyone has to make decisions in finite time, using the resources they actually have.
And I'd put a whole lot more responsibility further up that chain of contacts. And question how many other people they might have blabbered to.
petecooper 9 hours ago [-]
>And question how many other people they might have blabbered to.
100%. I'm concerned about the two-way street this might also have opened me up to with information I shared privately with this individual. Nothing significant or incriminating, but the professional relationship is concluded.
qubex 2 hours ago [-]
What does “take full responsibility” mean in the present context? Are you forfeiting all your assets and pledging the next twenty generations of your descendants into peonage?
(For clarity, I’m being facetious, but it’s a really meaningless and empty phrase to commit to the written record.)
petecooper 1 hours ago [-]
>What does “take full responsibility” mean in the present context?
I posted something that -- in hindsight -- I shouldn't have, and it had repercussions for a lot of people. An action that I took had considerable knock-in effects around the world.
Some outlets are reporting that my action of posting something that I believed to be in good faith was an indicator or catalyst for the embargo to be tossed out and a previously-agreed schedule to change in short order.
That's not a normal Wednesday for me. Not even vaguely. I've not slept well since, and my taking ownership with an apology is this new course of action. Hopefully I'll sleep tonight.
re: assets and peonage – I am but a broke & wizened nerd with no known descendants. If you're ever in Cornwall, UK: look me up, I'll gladly buy you a sleep-friendly beverage. And I’m not being facetious.
zer00eyz 41 minutes ago [-]
Shit happens.
Years ago I lost $250K at work, well gave away, so real money out the door. I figured out why we were bleeding, that the mistake was mine (2008 vs 2009 in a function) and then changed the pattern to use explicit names rather than numbered events.
I figured at the end of the day I was fired. My boss laughed at me and told me good job for owning my mistake, fixing it, and then making sure it could not happen again.
Honestly don't just apologize - tell the whole story, in full. Tell us what you should have done differently at each step. Tell us where the process failed you and us. Those sorts of narratives and suggestions are how processes get improved. There is a humble and informative post mortem that you can write up and publish (beyond HN) for everyone's edification. But that should honestly be a Monday thing, when you have a clear head and some more perspective on the whole situation.
Honestly though, dont beat yourself up over this.
john_strinlai 16 minutes ago [-]
>I figured at the end of the day I was fired. My boss laughed at me and told me good job for owning my mistake, fixing it, and then making sure it could not happen again.
i forget the origin of the story, but i loosely remember a story about a boss and employee in a similar situation. the important bit was the bosses line ($ adjusted to match your story):
"why would i fire you when i just spent $250k training you"
arto 8 minutes ago [-]
You may be thinking of Dale Carnegie's classic story:
> Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain—and most fools do.
> But it takes character and self-control to understand and forgive.
> “A great man shows his greatness,” said Carlyle, “by the way he treats little men.”
> Bob Hoover, a famous test pilot and frequent performer at air shows, was returning to his home in Los Angeles from a show in San Diego. As described in the magazine Flight Operations, at three hundred feet in the air, both engines suddenly stopped. By deft maneuvering he managed to land the plane. It was badly damaged, but fortunately neither he nor his two passengers were hurt.
> Hoover’s first act after the emergency landing was to inspect the airplane’s fuel. Just as he suspected, the World War II propeller plane he had been flying had been loaded with jet fuel rather than gasoline.
> Upon returning to the airport, Hoover asked to see the mechanic who had serviced his airplane. The young man was sick with the agony of his mistake. Tears streamed down his face as Hoover approached. He had just caused the loss of a very expensive plane and could have caused the loss of three lives, as well.
> You can imagine Hoover’s anger. One could anticipate the tongue-lashing that this proud and precise pilot was about to unleash for that carelessness. But Hoover didn’t scold the mechanic; he didn’t even criticize him. Instead, he put his big arm around the man’s shoulder and said, “To show you I’m sure that you’ll never do this again, I want you to service my F51 tomorrow.”
john_strinlai 2 minutes ago [-]
i have a feeling it was an IBM story/legend, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
however, it's much the same in spirit as the one you posted, thanks!
8 minutes ago [-]
ktm5j 27 minutes ago [-]
Yep, everyone makes mistakes. It's the learning-from-it part that's really important.
herodoturtle 35 minutes ago [-]
> What does “take full responsibility” mean in the present context?
Aside from Pete's reply (see adjacent comment), I'd add that him taking full responsibility is also his way of saying his post was nobody else's fault but his.
In other words it's less about forfeiting assets and descendant peonage, and more about saying "the buck stops with me".
At least that's my read of his sentiment. Pete can expand if need be.
dylan604 17 minutes ago [-]
I know nothing of who Pete is or his associations, so any accuracy on the following speculation is purely coincidental.
"Take full responsibility" is also something someone set up as a scapegoat might say. By claiming nobody else influenced, coerced, or otherwise convinced them to make that statement, every/any one else involved can then wash their hands of the situation.
I'm merely playing devil's advocate here, and it's just a sign of the times that a person making an honest admission can be interpreted in such a manner.
axus 21 minutes ago [-]
It does NOT mean "He agrees to settle any financial claims against himself or his employer, for damages caused by negligence".
Could have said "I blame only myself for this mistake, nothing else needs to change".
This will keep happening until the system where this can happen runs out of willing scapegoats.
Papazsazsa 32 minutes ago [-]
Taking responsibility for a mistake is neither meaningless nor empty, but honorable. The very essence of humanity.
iambateman 9 minutes ago [-]
Thanks Pete. I appreciate you taking the time to post here.
ivanjermakov 6 hours ago [-]
The first rule of the fight club only applies if you know about the fight club.
You're a good person with good intentions. Hope you get some rest sir.
tonymet 21 minutes ago [-]
Can someone, with the benefit of hindsight, explain the embargo ? Why isn't there a clause "if the vuln leaks, embargo is broken" . I still don't understand the fuss.
Everyone knew about the vuln well before the patches going live. The embargo, at that point, made things worse.
In plain english, please.
ChrisArchitect 6 hours ago [-]
Related (where you already posted a bit of this):
Today's PHP security release, and how we're strengthening security
It happens. Information cascades are messy, especially with multi-layered contacts
Thanks for owning it ,the best thing now is ensuring the patch details are clear once the official release drops. Moving forward is what matters
reboot81 7 hours ago [-]
You’re setting a great example of how to be open and take responsibility, even when you’re not actually at fault. I really respect how you’ve handled this. You’ve also given the community a valuable reminder that some security disclosures may be under embargo, and that it’s worth having in mind before sharing.
squidmaster 22 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
aaron695 8 hours ago [-]
[dead]
wewewedxfgdf 3 hours ago [-]
x
mindcrime 2 hours ago [-]
The modern version:
You have sinned.
Your penance:
Three Hail Claude's, one Our GPT and an act of loop engineering.
Two minutes of silent prompting.
solyin 1 hours ago [-]
and 1 hour, writing code, no AI.
wewewedxfgdf 32 minutes ago [-]
That's a bit harsh.
robrain 31 minutes ago [-]
What joy. Not much of a punishment.
voakbasda 6 hours ago [-]
Really hope you are not in the US. This kind of admission would be used against you in a civil trial, and lawyers love to sue for just about any reason under the sun. Someone could drag you to court and you might be able to defend yourself, but at an extremely painful cost both financially and emotionally. While I think that would be utter bullshit, that does seem to be the way this country operates now.
petecooper 6 hours ago [-]
I am not in the US.
throw_m239339 52 minutes ago [-]
The parent is getting downvoted but he is absolutely right. Do not ever do what you just did. It makes you an easy target for a frivolous lawsuit in the US or in other countries because of the potential liabilities in your message, they are real. Even if you didn't do anything wrong, you are painting a target on your back, for no reason. I would ask HN to delete that thread directly.
You cannot foresee the financial/civil consequences of that RCE and some people might be looking for scapegoats in the future.
ceejayoz 46 minutes ago [-]
There's at least some evidence in the other direction.
> New research shows that discussing hospital errors with patients leads to better patient safety without spurring a barrage of malpractice claims.
throw_m239339 43 minutes ago [-]
It has nothing to do with anything I said.
ceejayoz 21 minutes ago [-]
Sure it does. Saying sorry sometimes reduces liability risk, which is quite counterintuitive at first.
throw_m239339 16 minutes ago [-]
> Sure it does. Saying sorry sometimes reduces liability risk, which is quite counterintuitive at first.
No it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. The OP has no contractual or legal obligations toward any community, unlike a doctor and their patients in case of medical error.
edit:
> A doctor has no contractual obligation to apologize, either.
OP isn't a doctor as far as you know, and isn't apologizing to a patient in particular. You're completely off topic and you just want the last word at that point.
Again your ramblings have nothing to do with anything I have said.
ceejayoz 8 minutes ago [-]
A doctor has no contractual obligation to apologize, either.
But it can help prevent things from going to lawsuits, versus the "fuck you I admit nothing" approach that sometimes just pisses people off.
44 minutes ago [-]
cosmotic 29 minutes ago [-]
Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason. We should encourage honesty and transparency, not discourage it.
SoftTalker 24 minutes ago [-]
While possibly true in theory, in practice it's not. Courts and judges do not take kindly to frivolous or unsubstantiated claims, and any halfway good attorney would advise you to not waste your money and your time on a claim you are unlikely to win or be able to collect on.
People and companies do get sued with the full intention of a settlement and it never going to trial. But that only happens when the defendant has deep pockets or good insurance.
throw_m239339 20 minutes ago [-]
This isn't a matter of transparency, was the OP legally bound not to disclose the RCE? That whole "embargo" was pure courtesy between the people involved. The OP committed no fault at first place and the exploit was already in the wild anyway. Whoever really wanted to exploit it before the patch could without using the OP as a source.
> Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason.
And it's easier to have cause to sue when someone publish an "admission of guilt", which makes a lawsuit harder to dismiss thus costlier.
deadnomore 18 minutes ago [-]
This is definitionally humble bragging.
Rendered at 20:47:07 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
this whole saga will be analyzed and we'll all come out better for it at the end.
the embargo was already broken when pete received the information.
It will be headlines on Hacker News regardless due to sheer sensationalism, I think most DevSecOps people would rather find out the news here first than via their boss calling them after reading the morning news.
Reality is that everyone has to make decisions in finite time, using the resources they actually have.
And I'd put a whole lot more responsibility further up that chain of contacts. And question how many other people they might have blabbered to.
100%. I'm concerned about the two-way street this might also have opened me up to with information I shared privately with this individual. Nothing significant or incriminating, but the professional relationship is concluded.
(For clarity, I’m being facetious, but it’s a really meaningless and empty phrase to commit to the written record.)
I posted something that -- in hindsight -- I shouldn't have, and it had repercussions for a lot of people. An action that I took had considerable knock-in effects around the world.
Some outlets are reporting that my action of posting something that I believed to be in good faith was an indicator or catalyst for the embargo to be tossed out and a previously-agreed schedule to change in short order.
That's not a normal Wednesday for me. Not even vaguely. I've not slept well since, and my taking ownership with an apology is this new course of action. Hopefully I'll sleep tonight.
re: assets and peonage – I am but a broke & wizened nerd with no known descendants. If you're ever in Cornwall, UK: look me up, I'll gladly buy you a sleep-friendly beverage. And I’m not being facetious.
Years ago I lost $250K at work, well gave away, so real money out the door. I figured out why we were bleeding, that the mistake was mine (2008 vs 2009 in a function) and then changed the pattern to use explicit names rather than numbered events.
I figured at the end of the day I was fired. My boss laughed at me and told me good job for owning my mistake, fixing it, and then making sure it could not happen again.
Honestly don't just apologize - tell the whole story, in full. Tell us what you should have done differently at each step. Tell us where the process failed you and us. Those sorts of narratives and suggestions are how processes get improved. There is a humble and informative post mortem that you can write up and publish (beyond HN) for everyone's edification. But that should honestly be a Monday thing, when you have a clear head and some more perspective on the whole situation.
Honestly though, dont beat yourself up over this.
i forget the origin of the story, but i loosely remember a story about a boss and employee in a similar situation. the important bit was the bosses line ($ adjusted to match your story):
"why would i fire you when i just spent $250k training you"
> Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain—and most fools do.
> But it takes character and self-control to understand and forgive.
> “A great man shows his greatness,” said Carlyle, “by the way he treats little men.”
> Bob Hoover, a famous test pilot and frequent performer at air shows, was returning to his home in Los Angeles from a show in San Diego. As described in the magazine Flight Operations, at three hundred feet in the air, both engines suddenly stopped. By deft maneuvering he managed to land the plane. It was badly damaged, but fortunately neither he nor his two passengers were hurt.
> Hoover’s first act after the emergency landing was to inspect the airplane’s fuel. Just as he suspected, the World War II propeller plane he had been flying had been loaded with jet fuel rather than gasoline.
> Upon returning to the airport, Hoover asked to see the mechanic who had serviced his airplane. The young man was sick with the agony of his mistake. Tears streamed down his face as Hoover approached. He had just caused the loss of a very expensive plane and could have caused the loss of three lives, as well.
> You can imagine Hoover’s anger. One could anticipate the tongue-lashing that this proud and precise pilot was about to unleash for that carelessness. But Hoover didn’t scold the mechanic; he didn’t even criticize him. Instead, he put his big arm around the man’s shoulder and said, “To show you I’m sure that you’ll never do this again, I want you to service my F51 tomorrow.”
however, it's much the same in spirit as the one you posted, thanks!
Aside from Pete's reply (see adjacent comment), I'd add that him taking full responsibility is also his way of saying his post was nobody else's fault but his.
In other words it's less about forfeiting assets and descendant peonage, and more about saying "the buck stops with me".
At least that's my read of his sentiment. Pete can expand if need be.
"Take full responsibility" is also something someone set up as a scapegoat might say. By claiming nobody else influenced, coerced, or otherwise convinced them to make that statement, every/any one else involved can then wash their hands of the situation.
I'm merely playing devil's advocate here, and it's just a sign of the times that a person making an honest admission can be interpreted in such a manner.
Could have said "I blame only myself for this mistake, nothing else needs to change".
This will keep happening until the system where this can happen runs out of willing scapegoats.
Everyone knew about the vuln well before the patches going live. The embargo, at that point, made things worse.
In plain english, please.
Today's PHP security release, and how we're strengthening security
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50182987
Thanks for owning it ,the best thing now is ensuring the patch details are clear once the official release drops. Moving forward is what matters
You have sinned.
Your penance:
Three Hail Claude's, one Our GPT and an act of loop engineering.
Two minutes of silent prompting.
You cannot foresee the financial/civil consequences of that RCE and some people might be looking for scapegoats in the future.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2017/10/in-patient-in...
> New research shows that discussing hospital errors with patients leads to better patient safety without spurring a barrage of malpractice claims.
No it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. The OP has no contractual or legal obligations toward any community, unlike a doctor and their patients in case of medical error.
edit:
> A doctor has no contractual obligation to apologize, either.
OP isn't a doctor as far as you know, and isn't apologizing to a patient in particular. You're completely off topic and you just want the last word at that point.
Again your ramblings have nothing to do with anything I have said.
But it can help prevent things from going to lawsuits, versus the "fuck you I admit nothing" approach that sometimes just pisses people off.
People and companies do get sued with the full intention of a settlement and it never going to trial. But that only happens when the defendant has deep pockets or good insurance.
> Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason.
And it's easier to have cause to sue when someone publish an "admission of guilt", which makes a lawsuit harder to dismiss thus costlier.